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it would be so much the better." The but the day of that improvement would Canada corn bill had been passed for one never come. They would be obliged to year; but for some reason, with which he have a commission to carry these measures was unacquainted, it was not revived; and into effect, and he had seen too much the attempt to produce a measure of the of commissions not to know that the same kind had been defeated in the other whole would end in a system of jobbing. House in the session before the last. He Lands never could be rendered productive would, however, most strenuously recom- in the hands of the church. In his own mend ministers to turn their attention to country the church lands were always the the subject ; for, unless they could give the worst, probably from the leases being emigrants a market, it was useless to talk short, and there being no motive therefore of the improvement of their lands. for improvement. If the hon. gentleman

Mr. Stanley begged to observe, that in wished really to improve the lands, let giving his unqualitied approbation to the him grant long leases of them for 999 measure proposed, he must be understood years, or thereabouts, and then the tenas being perfectly aware of the nature of ants would be stimulated to make them the property allotted to the church, and of valuable. being as sensible as any man of the mon- Leave was given to bring in the bill. strous absurdity of attempting to support what was called the established church, PRIVATE BILL COMMITTEES.] Mr. but which, in fact, never would be esta- B. Cooper rose to propose the resolution blished. The present sale he understood of which he had given notice, respecting to be for the improvement of the remainder Private Committees. The adoption of of the lands given to the church; and as this resolution he thought necessary to such it had his approval. It left, too, the give effect to the excellent regulations question respecting the propriety of such prepared by the hon. member for Staffordgrant precisely where it was; for the act of shire, to whom the House and the country 1791, under the authority of which it was were much indebted for having taken up made, remained just as open to revision or the subject. To render those regulations amendinent after that sale as it was before. more complete, the privilege of voting on

Mr. Waithman condemned, in strong Private Committees should not be allowed terms, the plan of giving lands in the colo- to every member of the House. The connies to any company whatever. He feared sequence of such a privilege was, that that, in such cases, the property was only members who did not attend the comturned to the purpose of enriching a few mittee, and therefore knew nothing of individuals, while the mass of those who what passed in it, were induced by the were seduced by their promises and repre- solicitation of friends to go and vote at sentations became the victims of their the termination of the inquiry. Such a credulity. He had known a great many proceeding was manifestly unjust and instances of that kind, and actually seen mischievous, and ought not to be allowed a person who had made his way back to to continue. It also happened, that England from Colombia, after being de- some members who had a great deal of frauded of money he had paid for land, local information upon the particular and been disappointed in all the prospects subject of inquiry, were often omitted held out to him. Many of the unfortunate in the appointment of the original comsettlers sent out by companies were, in mittee; but it was not, however, bis fact, scattered over the country, instead of intention to deprive a committee of the being settled down in the places which advantage of their assistance. He would were promised to them.

only restrict them to the necessity of a Mr. W. Horton complained of the kind special application to the House, to allow of declamation used by the hon. alderman their names to be added to the committee. upon the subject. Nothing could be more The hon, member then proposed the absurd than to say all companies were following resolution :-" That after any unworthy, because the members of one had committee on a petition for a private bill, been guilty of deceit.

or on a private bill, shall have been formed Mr. Dawson, (of Louth), condemned according to the new distribution of counthe whole project, as useless and impolitic.ties, individual members may be added They now proposed to sell one part of the thereto upon special application to the land for the improvement of the other ;) House, and that no member shall have a

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voice in such committee, unless he shall. Mr. Hume objected to the great expense have been originally included within the incurred in the education of young men new lists, or have been so specially ap- for the army at the Military Colleges, pointed afterwards.”

which bore no proportion to the number Mr. Mundy seconded the motion. of cadets. In the last year only thirtyThe greatest inconvenience and mischief eight cadets, who had been educated at had, he said, arisen from members voting the Military Colleges had entered the army, on private bills who had not attended to and he believed that for some years there the details in the committee. He had had not been more than ten young men at himself on one occasion been requested to Woolwich. vote on a private bill, respecting which he Mr. Secretary Peel thought it was neknew nothing whatever. He refused to cessary that officers should be educated do so, and had expressed what he could in such a manner as would qualify them not consider an improper indignation at for entering the service. The hon. memsuch a request having been made to him. ber was mistaken in supposing that only It was, in his opinion, an insult to a mem- thirty-eight cadets had been educated; ber, to ask him to vote under such cir- for in time of peace two hundred, and in cumstances.

war four hundred, were educated at these The resolution was agreed to.


Mr. Maberly admitted that our officers ARMY ESTIMATES.] The resolutions ought to be properly educated for the serof the committee to which the Army Es- vice; but thought that that education timates were referred being brought up, should be at the charge of their friends.

Mr. Hume said, that seeing the chan- He was persuaded that, if the subject cellor of the Exchequer in his place, he were referred to a committee above-stairs, wished to ask him whether the estimates, a saving of ten thousand a-year might be as they stood, were meant to include all effected. the expenses of the expedition to Portugal, Mr. D. W. Harvey thought it would or whether he intended to propose some be very advantageous to refer, not only addition at a future opportunity? He this particular subject, but the whole of thought it was time for the right hon. the estimate for the Army, Navy, and Ordgentleman to be looking about for the nance, to the consideration of a committee, ways and means with which he was to by whom they might be minutely dispay the estimates.

cussed, with a view to public economy. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, Such a mode of proceeding would also it was impossible for him at that moment have the effect of doing away with much to say whether he should propose to the desultory conversation. House that the additional expenses in- Mr. Secretary Peel observed, that that curred by the expedition to Portugal was precisely what had been done in 1817, should be defrayed by an addition to the when a committee above-stairs had fixed army extraordinaries, or by means of a the scale by which this part of our exseparate vote. In whatever shape it might penditure ought to be regulated. be presented, he did not think it would be Mr. D. W. Harvey thought it would so formidable as the hon. member seemed be serviceable to the country, if such a to fancy.

committee was appointed every seven On the first resolution being read, years.

Mr. Warburton wished to know whether Mr. Alderman Waithman complained all the expense of the Portuguese expedi- that there was no symptom of retrenchtion would be defrayed by this country, ment manifested in the army. The counor any part by Portugal; and if so, what try could not go on with a military es

tablishment of 87,000 men. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, was never more efficient; and on it the that this government was not to pay the safety of the country mainly depended. expense of the subsistence and the charges It was on the principle that retrenchment for barracks of the troops in Portugal; ought to take place, that he had opposed which were to be defrayed by the govern- the grant to the royal duke the other ment of that country.

night; not on account of the sum proposed On the resolution for a grant to the to be granted, but because he conceived Royal Military Colleges,

it an outrage, that such a proposition


The navy


should be brought forward at a time when he believed it to be an undoubted fact, they were planning the banishment to fo- that persons were appointed no better reign countries of the flower of the people, qualified than he was to fill a military through the absolute inability of subsisting station. When he lately passed through them at home. The expense of the coun- Berwick there was not a gun in the garritry was enormous, and he protested against son ; the cause of which he (Mr. Hume) it altogether. The distresses of the coun- | understood to be this :—When the radicals try must be taken into consideration, and were making a noise in the country, the sooner the ministers sat about it the threatening the destruction of property better.

and what not, the governor of Berwick Mr. Lombe remonstrated against the was so alarmed lest the guns of the garrienormous expenses of the country, and son should fall into their hands, that he particularly against the estimates for the actually sent the guns from the place. land forces.

Every gun in the garrison was swept away, Mr. Monck maintained that the esti- but the governor himself remained. And mates ought to be referred to a committee. what did this fear on the part of the goThe situation of the country had so ma- vernor arise from? Because the people terially changed within the last ten years, were oppressed beyond their means; for that it was necessary to revise the report it was nothing but mismanagement on the of the committee of 1817. With respect part of the government of a country that to the particular vote before the House, ever tempted its people to rebel. The he fully agreed with his hon. friend, that effect attended upon the cause. He the whole effect of this very large expen- wished from his heart, that the governditure was the education of thirty-eight ment of this country might never have young gentlemen.

occasion to revert to a system grounded On the grant being proposed, of in fear; and he felt persuaded that the 36,2721. for maintaining his Majesty's best mode of accomplishing this desirable Garrisons at home and abroad, for the object, would be to put an end at once to

all useless pensions and sinecures, whether Mr. Hume said, that he had opposed in the church, the army, navy, or civil dethis vote several years ago, and the time partments. By reverting to a reduction that had since elapsed had more and more of the church establishment, he felt that convinced him of the necessity of adopting he might bring himself under the lash of some salutary measure of reform, not only certain gentlemen who were in the habit in this particular vote, but with regard to of considering church property as an inothers. He objected to this grant, be- terest vested in the possessor. He would, cause he was opposed to the system of therefore, refrain at present from pursuing sinecures ; and he meant to show that, that topic, and reverting to places and with a few exceptions, the vote which the sinecures in the departments immediately House was now called upon to pass was connected with government, he would say, principally made up of pensions and sine- let all offices that were not necessary be cures. He would show that in this esti- abolished at once, in order that the public mate of 36,2721. the country was called might benefit from the saving. The sum upon to pay for a staff in places where no required for the garrisons in Great Britain, garrisons existed. In short, he meant to for the year 1827, amounted to 23,1811. show, that the present vote was for the The governor of Berwick received an anmaintenance of a nest of sinecures. When nual salary of 5681., which would be paid it was proposed to the House in the first out of this vote. The lieutenant-governor instance by the noble Secretary at War, he was also non-resident, and his salary had said, that his majesty wished to have amounted to 1731. The town-adjutant it in his power to bestow on officers who was charged at 691. and the townhad distinguished themselves in the ser major at 691. What these people could vice, the appointments to the garrisons at have to do in such a garrison, he could home and abroad as a reward for public not tell. The governor of Blackness conduct. If that feeling had been acted Castle was non-resident, and his pay was upon in the present instance, he should charged at 2841, per annum. There was not have felt it his duty to oppose this not a single human being in this castle. vote, but he knew that the opposite policy The governor of Carlisle was a non-resihad been pursued with regard to it, and dent; his pay was 1721.; and the lieute

year 1827,


nant-governor, who was also non-resident, appeared that there were thirty-nine goreceived 1731. The governor and lieute- vernors in all, whose united periods of nant-governor of Chester received 1731., service amounted to nearly two thousand and were non-resident. The warden of years. The governor of Chelsea Hospital the Cinque Ports was non-resident, and and himself had seen together a period of he received 4741. a-year, as governor; the one hundred and four years' service. lieutenant-governor received 1711., and There were, it appeared, five hundred the deputy 1041. If these officers were and eighty-eight officers at present on the resident, all he could say was, that the re- list, and many had not a higher income turn was erroneous. He should like to than some hon. members of that House know whether a certain officer of Dart- were in the habit of giving their head mouth had obtained his appointment for clerks. When it was considered that, military or for parliamentary services. however confined their means might be, This governor used to be a member of that they were expected to maintain their rank House, and of course, a ministerial mem- and dignity, the stipends which they reber. This was an instance of the impro- ceived could hardly be considered excespriety of these votes. The governor of sive. It was not true that the army had Dumbarton was a non-resident. There gone on increasing in its expenditure. To was the appointment of a physician and instance one class of officers, he meant others, forming a large establishment at the colonels of regiments, they had not the Tower. Some of these officers he received the smallest addition to their pay found residing in Suffolk, and some in since the reign of queen Anne. Norfolk. The most improper mode of Mr. Maberly said, that he had advised rewarding services was by sinecures. He his hon. friend long ago, not to press his should, therefore, move the following objections against these estimates, as amendment;-" That it is highly inex- such subjects could only be examined with pedient, in the present state of the finances effect in a committee. His hon, friend, of the country, to keep up garrisons at a | however, had followed his own course : charge of 36,2721. for the current year, and, perhaps, after all, he did right in when many of them are useless, and the keeping the subject so constantly before offices, sinecures, and non-residents; (as the public. It had, no doubt, the effect for example, at Berwick-upon-Tweed, of putting a wholesome check to the exwhere there is not a gun on the ram- penditure of the country. The noble parts, the estimate for the year is 8821. for Secretary had admitted, that the commitgovernor, deputy-governor, and staff); tee appointed in 1817 had effected some that, therefore, it is the opinion of this good." But such a committee, if periodiHouse, that every unnecessary and sine- cal, would be much more useful. He cure office of this kind should be reduced as gave his hon. friend credit for his exerthey become vacant; and that, wherever tions, and thought that he had, in some it is necessary to grant rewards to officers degree, checked the progress of expendiof extraordinary merit, this House will, ture. But he was of opinion, that these on due consideration of each case, grant were subjects which could only be effecsuch provisions as shall be proper, instead tually treated by a committee; and, for of the present practice of granting them his own part, if he were a member of such sinecure and useless military appointments a committee, he would entirely concur in garrisons."

with the gallant officer, that the services Sir A. Hope rose to oppose the amend of the army deserved to be recompensed. ment of the hon. gentleman, who had not | He agreed, however, with his hon. friend, proved that the situations of which he that the subject of sinecures ought not to spoke were sinecures. With respect to be overlooked, and hoped that he would the governor of Berwick, he had been press the appointment of a committee. sixty-two years in the service, and the Lord Palmerston said, that the question lieutenant-governor forty-nine years, mak- was not one of detail, but of principle,

ing a total of one hundred and eleven and was therefore a proper one to be disyears passed in the service of their country. cussed by the House. These garrison There was no class of officers, he would appointments might be divided into two venture to affirm, who deserved more from classes : those given to inferior officers, their country than those persons who to which duties were attached ; and those were appointed governors of garrisons. It | given to higher officers as a reward for

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services, and to which neither duties nor functions, it would do an act more destrucresidence were attached. The first class tive to the essence of the constitution of was not under discussion. As to the the country, than had ever been done by latter class, he contended, that the ap- any minister in that House. It did not pointment should be left to the discretion belong to the House of Commons to comof the Crown. The committee of 1817 mand the army; and, consequently, not had recommended that these appointments to interfere in the distribution of rewards should be continued. When he looked at for military services. On this ground the number of officers which an army like alone, if he had no other objection, he that of England must have, even on the would oppose the amendment of the hon. most reduced scale, the Crown ought to member for Aberdeen. have the means of rewarding those who Mr. Baring said, that his hon. friend had deserved well of their country. The the member for Montrose, might possibly hon. member had referred to Berwick. diminish his influence in the House by the Now, when he mentioned the name of manner in which he objected to every general Tarleton, would any gentleman vote. It was, however, unquestionable, suppose that he had obtained his situation that his vigilance had been an insuperfor any support given to ministers in that able obstacle to many objectionable pracHouse? It was well known that general tices and designs. It was quite impossiTarleton had, at a former time, though ble that the government could proceed in not very recently, performed most essen- their present course, unless the people tial military services for the country. were called upon for the augmentation of When he cited the names of lord Ludlow, taxes, or the finances were to be ruined. general Abercrombie, sir Alexander Hope, One of these two things must occur. The sir Lowry Cole, lord Hill

, lord Combermere, whole system of expenditure ought to be lord Hutchinson, and the duke of Welling- referred to a Committee of the House. ton—when he mentioned these distinguish- The estimates were of a nature which, ed names, he defied any hon. member to under the present state of its finances, the say that the offices which they held had not country could not supply. Government been properly and usefully bestowed. The might say that such a scale of expenditure last part of the proposition now brought was necessary to uphold the honour and forward by the hon. member, was decided dignity of the country; but it was imposly objectionable. These offices were held sible for the people to meet that scale. by the Crown. The hon. gentleman pro- The difference between those who had to posed to take them from the Crown, and spend and those who had to pay, was vest them in that House. The House was immense. It was not for government to to confer pensions equivalent to these ap- say, that this garrison was useful, or that pointments. If the hon. member had this establishment was essential. The merely proposed that the Crown should question was, could the country afford it? grant equivalents in lieu of these offices, He thought that the present estimate had he should have felt it his duty to object to been most satisfactorily accounted for by such an alteration. Rewards of this na- the gallant officer who had recently adture were a source of pride and distinction dressed the House, with whom he agreed to those who, by their merit, obtained in thinking that there were many meritothem. They were associated with the rious officers who would gladly accept of most gratifying recollections of their mili- a government of small value as a reward tary career. Pensions would not be the of their services, who would feel ill treated means of exciting such pleasing and by the offer of a pension to the same honourable retrospections. But, when the amount. If, as had been stated, any hon. member proposed to transfer the abuses had crept in, in bestowing these power from the Crown to that House, he appointments, the best way to expose must beg to remind him, that such an them was, by giving them publicity. 'He

Не expedient would be a wide departure from was sorry to be obliged to oppose the the fundamental principles of the consti- amendment of the hon. member for tution. He looked upon the House of Aberdeen. Commons as the most essential, and most Mr. Hume said, he would meet the useful branch of the constitution; but if wishes of his friends, by withdrawing his the House attempted to wrest from any motion. other portion of the legislature its peculiar Mr. Rickford moved as an Amendment,


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