to princes, than himself. He was confident, therefore, that his support of this resolution would be attributed solely to that abstract view of its reasonableness and propriety, which he most conscientiously entertained; and, entertaining, had avowed a duty which he did not hesitate to perform, although its execution placed him under the painful necessity of recording his dissent, on this occasion, from some of those hon. friends in that House with whom he was in the habit, upon almost all other occasions, of voting. Mr. Ridley Colborne deplored the present opposition to the grant, and declared that, whatever might have been the opinion of the honourable members at first, such continued and obstinate resistance would make the offer of the money come as ungraciously from the House, as its acceptance must be rendered painful to the illustrious individual for whom it was intended. Lord Leveson Gower did not think it necessary to trouble the House with any explanation of his reasons for supporting the grant after the question had been so fairly and ably stated by the knight of Kerry. In every expression which had fallen from that right hon. gentleman he most fully concurred; but he wished to say a few words upon the line of argument taken by the hon. member for Aberdeen. That hon. member had endeavoured to take the course which he thought best calculated to enlist upon his side the passions of the people, and to make the grant of any sum to the duke of Clarence a matter of obloquy in the eyes of a great portion of the distressed. There was, however, no period at which the hon. member might not be able to find the same reasons for opposing any, even a necessary, matter of public expenditure; and if it might be objected to such an argument, that the present grant was an unnecessary piece of expenditure, then he would answer, that the very same would be said of the most necessary. The same argument might be applied in the same manner to even the accumulation of large private fortunes; but he conceived that such appeals to the passions instead of the reasons of men were not to be justified upon any sound principles of policy. Mr. Hume's Amendment was negatived, and leave was then given to bring in the bill. ARMY ESTIMATES.] The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, to which the Army Estimates were referred, Lord Palmerston said, that the estimates of the present year differed very little, either in the number of men or the amount of the expenditure, from those of last year; but, as there were some variations in the details, it might be necessary for him to explain them shortly to the House. The total number of men in the estimate of last year was eighty-six thousand, seven hundred and sixty-four. The number of the present year was eighty-six thousand, eight hundred and three, making an increase of thirty-nine men, for the service of the present year. The charge for the last year was 6,602,1351. The charge for the present year was 6,601,9487. The noble lord, after enumerating several minor changes and charges, in a very low tone, observed, that there was a saving from a reduction in the Levy-money to 51. 4s.; but that the expense of the staff was increased 15,000l., from the nature of the armament sent to Portugal. In the War-office there would be found a reduction of 5,000l., and several of the unsettled accounts, as he anticipated last year, had been arranged. The noble lord spoke in such a hurried and suppressed tone, that it was almost impossible to hear what he said. As far as we could understand the noble lord, he observed, that the third class of the estimates included the expenses of the civil departments, or public offices, connected with the army: these amounted to 111,655l. 7s. 1d. The fourth charge was that of medicines, and surgical materials for the land forces, together with certain hospital contingencies, which, in the whole, amounted to 13,910l. 14s. 6d. for England, and 3,8671. for Ireland. In both, 17,7771. 14s. 6d. The expenses of the Royal Military College were estimated at 13,2297. 3s. 7d. He would now state that the amount of the pay of general officers was 148,2261. 7s. 6d. which showed a diminution upon the estimates of last year of 8631. The whole pay of retired officers was 118,000l., and the half-pay and military allowances to reduced and retired officers was 770,0447. 12s. 6d. The charge for in-pensioners of Chelsea Hospital was 33,726l. 19s. 4d., which was a diminution upon the estimate of last year of 9407. The out-pensions of Chelsea Hospital would amount, in the present year, to 1,312,9177. 10s. 11d., which was an increase of 27,000l. upon the estimate of the preceding year. This arose from the disbanding of certain troops, otherwise there would have been a saving of 23,000l. But the addition made to the Chelsea pensions was not the only cause of the increase of the present estimates over those of last year. There was, besides, a small excess, arising from a new class of pensions. The total of the estimate for the Military Asylum was 28,0467. 17s., which showed an increase over the estimate of last year of 2,500l. This did not arise from any additional establishment, or from any permanent charge whatever. It was found necessary, this year, to make an addition to the building. The expense was, therefore, merely temporary, and could not be taken as any precedent of an item in a future estimate. The account of Widows' Pensions amounted to 135,8687. 16s. 8d., which was a diminution, when compared with that of 1826, of 6,1711. The Compassionate List for the present year amounted to 193,0637. 13s.9d., which showed an increase over that of the last year. The Exchequer fees remained the same. The expenses of the Veteran Battalions were 86,8037., being an increase of 23,4977., and a diminution of 23,6701. over the expenses of the year 1826. The balance was, consequently, 1747. in favour of the present year. The noble lord then moved, "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding eighty-seven thousand, eight hundred and fifty-nine men (exclusive of the men belonging to the Regiments employed in the Territorial Possessions of the East India Company), Commissioned and Non-commissioned Officers included, be maintained for the service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the 25th Dec. 1826, to the 24th Dec. 1827, inclusive." Colonel Davies said, that considering the importance of the question under discussion, he regretted that the tone in which the noble lord had spoken, and the noise made by hon. gentlemen in leaving the House, had rendered it hardly possible for him to hear what the noble lord had said. He would confess, that it was with no little surprise that he viewed the conduct of those gentlemen by whom he was generally surrounded. When the question before the House merely concerned a common job, such as the unnecessary appointment of a junior lord of the Admiralty, which might involve the waste of 1,000l. a-year; or the job of appointing a second postmaster-general, which might cost about 2,000l. a-year; or even a vote of an additional allowance to a prince of the blood royal-then, indeed, he saw a race between gentlemen in their efforts to oppose ministers. This appeared to be deemed by them sufficient to patch up their reputations for leaving their posts when questions of vital importance, like the present, were to be settled. This might, perhaps, succeed for them within the walls of that House but it would not serve their purpose out of doors. There the mode of estimating parliamentary conduct was different. On all occasions he had done his utmost to reduce the public expenditure within reasonable and honest bounds. With respect to the grant to the duke of Clarence, he felt that he had given his vote conscientiously. Before the Committee came to its decision upon the question submitted to it, he would wish to draw the attention of members to the extravagance of the scale of the public expenditure, and to the excess of the present estimates over those of preceding years. To whatever period he referred, the comparison would be to the disadvantage of ministers. He would not travel so far back as the year 1792, that epoch to which hon. gentlemen were so fond of referring, and to which they could so often refer with strict propriety-in illustrating the extravagant career of government. He would content. himself with a retrospect to a period when the House of Commons contained most of the gentlemen who sat in the present parliament. He would refer to the year 1822, and would draw a comparison between the public expenses then, and the amount of them at the present moment. The comparison would surprise those who were not in parliament at the former period. The four great branches of expenditure to which he would call the attention of the House were the Army, Navy, Ordnance, and the Miscellaneous Service. The amount of these was 14,606,0001, in the year 1822. For the year ending the 5th Jan., 1827, the same four branches of service amounted to 19,344,000l., being an increase 4,738,000l. He would only ask those gentlemen who were so loud in their professions of public spirit, to have the goodness to do their duty when these estimates were voted. If they would but attend in of their places, the country might be richer | The present system was, therefore, eviby nearly five millions per annum. He dently better than that which formerly objected strongly to many of the items in existed. With reference to the organizathe present estimates. There was a charge tion of the army, so far from the present of 60,000l. for levy money of fifteen plan of recruiting having impaired that thousand men. The usual number of organization, or in any respect diminished rank and file in the army was seventy-four its efficiency, it had eminently tended to thousand, five hundred. Therefore, fifteen raise the force in every point of service. thousand men were one fifth of the whole The strength of a battalion of the line on army. Although the duration of a soldier's foreign service was six hundred men. life, from the casualties of battle, foreign Formerly, a regiment consisted of ten service, and hard duty, was not equal to companies or eight; all of which went on that of a civilian, he could assert, that it service, leaving only the skeleton of one was a great deal more, upon an average, company to recruit. Each regiment now than five years. Never was there so ex- consisted of ten companies, six of which travagant a demand made upon this head were sent on service, the remaining four of expenditure. In 1823, the number of companies being left at home to recruit. recruits raised was only eleven thousand. These companies disciplined the young He observed in the estimates a charge of soldiers, and sent them from time to time 28,000l. for raising only four companies. to the battalions abroad. It was a literal Each recruit must, therefore, have cost fact, that when a comparison had been the country no less than 20. before he made between regiments consisting of the could be reckoned fit for service. He be- same number of men, those which had lieved that the newly adopted system of re- only six companies abroad, and recruited cruiting by whole companies, tended much under the present system, were found to to destroy the efficiency of the army, and be stronger and more efficient than the many whom he had consulted upon the regiments with ten companies, upon the subject concurred with him in the opinion. former system of recruiting. The reason Lord Palmerston said, that the gallant was evident: the four companies at home member was mistaken with respect to the were a better engine for recruiting and number of recruits. Of the fifteen thou-keeping up the undisturbed organization sand men, four thousand were to supply an additional force, and the number intended to answer the wear and casualties of the service was only eleven thousand. Taking deaths, desertions, and discharges, into consideration, it would be by no means more than would probably be wanted. With reference to the system of recruiting, as far as his experience went, he could positively assert that the present system was eminently adapted to ensure the efficiency of the service. In the first place, by the present system of recruiting, there was no longer a multitude of officers that used to be detached from their regiments, wasting their time, to the loss and disadvantage of the public. Instead of nine hundred officers so detached by the old practice, there were now not even one hundred. By the present system, no regiment could detach more than one officer at a time, and no officer so detached could be absent from his regiment more than two years. The absent officer was not allowed to have under his command a single man belonging to his own regiment; so that the regiment was left efficient and complete. I and numbers of the regiment, than the skeleton companies which were formerly used for raising men. The garrisons abroad were much more effective now than formerly. The new recruiting system had, however, another material object in view. When a whole regiment went abroad, if officers became unable to continue in active service, they were sent home on leave. This indulgence was, of course, limited; and when their leave expired, if the state of their health prevented their returning to their regiments, and reassuming active duties, they were of necessity compelled to retire on half-pay. Upon the present system, the officer came home, not merely upon leave of absence. If his health did oblige him to quit active duty, he did not come home upon leave of absence, nor were his services lost to the public. He joined his dépôt, and there performed that comparatively easy duty which the state of his health permitted. Dépôts, which consisted of raw recruits, could not certainly be so available as entire regiments; but they did perform a share of duty, and of a description necessary to the service. military establishments got down to sixtyeight thousand eight hundred and three men. A sinking fund was provided, which, it was said, would, at the end of ten years, reduce eighty millions. Almost every body who heard him must remember the confidence with which ministers spoke of the reduction of the debt to that amount. It was considered as nothing short of faction to dispute their calculations, or to doubt their sincerity. They Mr. Hume said, he would leave it to the comprehension of military men, how regiments of six hundred men could be more efficient than regiments of eight hundred. From what he heard, a very different account could be given of this subject. Leaving such paradoxes, he would ask, was it economical to have fifty field officers, two hundred and four captains, four hundred and eight subalterns and staff officers employed recruiting? Ministers were in the habit of talk-asserted, and repeated the assertion, that ing of the preference of one system over another; they compared them in their different points, and vaunted of the superiority of recent plans. The only point which they never took into consideration was, what appeared to him to be the most essential to consider; namely, the expense. Improvements, however obvious, might be acquired at too great a cost. By the present practice, the War Depart-debt. After this pledge of ministers, they ment left a staff at home, with a few companies, to recruit; and, as far as he could learn, the expense of the system was well deserving of attention. So far from being economical, it was most extravagant. every establishment of the army should be kept down to the scale which the petition to the Crown had induced them to adopt. What had been the result? In five years, instead of a reduction by this sinking fund, of thirty-five or forty millions, every shilling of that sinking fund was wanted for the current expenses, and the country, at this moment, was more in had contrived to bring the army to eightysix, instead of sixty-six, thousand. There had been an unnecessary and wanton increase of twenty thousand men, after ministers had pretended to sympathize in the sufferings of the people, and had pledged themselves that every possible The question being then put upon the resolution, "That eighty-seven thousand three hundred and fifty-nine men be pro-attention should be given to economy. vided for the Military Service in the present year," As to the estimates before the House, they were a mere farce: they were of no value whatever they were merely waste paper; they did not bind ministers, they did not bind the noble lord, as to what number of men should be kept up, or as to what expense should be incurred. He Mr. Hume said, that he, for one, objected in the strongest manner to the great amount of the army. He objected to it in a constitutional sense; he objected to it in point of expense; and because he did not think it necessary to the exigen-held in his hand a return, by which the cies of the country. He knew that he was not solitary in entertaining these objections. As the House had pledged itself to support the expedition to Portugal, to put matters to rights there, he did not mean, at the present moment, to do more than to protest against the number of our forces. He would, however, beg leave to state to the House, that when parliament had recently petitioned the Crown to reduce the public establishments, the answer from the Crown was, that all possible economy should be observed, with a view to recruit the finances and to pay off a portion of the public debt. To this ministers had made the Crown pledge itself to the country. Now, it was curious to see whether ministers had so far regarded the honour of the Crown as to act up to this pledge. When that public promise was given to the country, the House would see how useless it was to vote an estimate of 6,401,000l.,-the amount of the estimate of last year, when the scale of disbursements was 8,000,000l., being an increase of 1,600,000l. What could be the use of voting this estimate or that estimate, when, without the authority of parliament, ministers exceeded the vote to the extent which he had stated? Independently of other circumstances, let the House consider where the government could find money to continue in such a course, unless they resorted to the expedient of raising loans. Did it not behove the government, in this period of peace, to husband the resources of the country? Was not this the honest policy of a government in a period of peace? How much more did it behove them to do so in a country in which every interest was labouring under the most dreadful FEB. 19, 1827. that, by the paper which he held in his 578 hand, it appeared that the difference was only 1,300,000l. Mr. Hume wished to know the precise sums. amount of the Army, Navy, Ordnance, Mr. V. Fitzgerald stated, that the and Miscellaneous services in 1822 was 16,680,000l., and of the same services in the last year 17,941,000l.; being a difference of only 1,300,000Z. ac his hand a paper, in which a different acMr. Hume observed, that he held in count was given of the matter. It was signed J. C. Herries, and gave an count of the revenue and expenditure of the year ending 1st January, 1827; by which it appeared that the expenditure for the Army, Navy, Ordnance, and Miscellaneous services, was 19,344,1877. the papers were perfectly correct, yet the Mr. Herries begged to say, that, though conclusions drawn from them by the hon. distress? He had had the curiosity that day to examine the estimates and expenses of the government of the United States of America. Their civil, military, and naval establishments were not more than the civil list and the expenses of the royal family of England. The whole legislative, judicial, and civil departments of the United States did not cost more than 200,000l. above the civil list of England and the cost of the royal family. Thus, the American Civil establishments cost 196,9467.; Miscellaneous, 150,000l.; Diplomatic, 55,000l.; Military, including fortifications, 1,160,000l.; Navy, including the expense of building, &c., 645,000l. For our establishments, the charge was no less than 19,000,000l., being 8,297,000l. for the Army; Ordnance, 1,869,000l.; Navy, 6,540,000l.; Miscellaneous, 2,566,0007.: making, with the civil list, 21,000,000l. And all this was done by America for little more than 2,000,000l. It was thus that that country was husband-member were totally incorrect. He thought ing her resources, whilst we were improvidently expending ours. Sixteen millions sterling was the whole of her national debt; being not one year's amount of the cost of our army, navy, and civil establishments. When ministers talked of the honour and dignity of the country, he would remind them, that if they ruined its finances, which they were doing as effectually as they could do, they were, in fact, ruining the honour and dignity which they were pretending to support. England was exceeding her income by four millions and a half a year. Ministers had got rid of the whole of the surplus revenue; and they were now pressing the House to vote the estimates, without the least discretion, and without having any general view of the state of the country. The country was more straitened in her finances than at the conclusion of the war. He hoped the House would pause before it gave its sanction to so large an establishment; and he would therefore propose as an amendment, that sixty-seven thousand three hundred and fifty-nine men be substituted instead of eighty-seven thousand three hundred and fifty-nine men. Mr. V. Fitzgerald denied the assertion of the gallant colonel opposite, that the expenditure of the Army, Navy, Ordnance, and Miscellaneous estimates was between four and five millions more in the last year than in the year 1822. Instead of VOL. XVI. that such a deduction as that made by the hon. member would not have been again brought forward, after the explanation which his right hon. friend, the chancellor of the Exchequer, had given the other night upon the subject. He had made a clear distinction between the annual estimates voted by parliament for the Army, Navy, Ordnance, &c., and the sums actually expended within any particular period. It was well known, that, at the end of the year 1825, there was a severe pressure on the country; and that, in consequence, there were heavy demands for money on the Treasury for the payment of Exchequer bills. stances, the issues had not beeu made for the Army and Navy, and the current payments were delayed, so that thus the demands, which were payable in December, 1825, were postponed, in order that the Exchequer, at such a crisis, might be kept that many payments which properly beas full as possible. The consequence was, longed to 1825 fell within the year 1826, indicating a large apparent expenditure in that year. usual way, the postponement might have Had matters gone on in the increase the apparent amount of the paygone on to a certain extent, so as not to ments; but an armament became necessary; and it was well known, that when troops were sent abroad it was usual to pay them in advance. Thus an operation of an opposite nature took place; and, Under those circum U |