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employment throughout the county, and was ashamed to admit, existed in Irewages at only from 4d. to 5d. a-day. land. The evil would then, and at no The Knight of Kerry said, that the poor distant period, be felt and complained of people in his neighbourhood were glad to in England, as it was already felt and go a long way from their homes to pro- complained of in Scotland. What, then, cure employment, by which they earned must be done with it? Honourable genno more than two-pence a-day. He be- tlemen said, “ do nothing, and it will cure lieved that, as a general position, these itself.” What! let famine and pestilence facts might be somewhat over-stated ; but do their work? Leave such a state of he knew that starvation existed to a great things alone, and leave the wretched extent in Ireland. He did not say that people who suffered under it to die by men died from actual famine; but he starvation or disease! And this because stated, without the fear of contradiction, it was thought the evil would cure itself; that the privations which the people of that in a few years improvident marriages that country endured diminished their would cease, and all would be well again! strength and shortened their lives. What- But, what was the fact? The population ever notions might be formed of the ap. of Ireland had doubled within ihe last pearance of his countrymen, who, when twenty-one years, and was still increasing. they came over here, plumped up and This reasoning was altogether false false as soon seemed to be in good condition, he applied to Ireland, because it was opposed could assure the House, that in Ireland to facts; and false a priori, as applied to their gaunt forms and lantern features any country; for when people were sunk indicated, beyond all question, that they into distress and want, they became despeendured the extremity of human misery. rate and reckless of all consequences. The consequence of this state of suffering the evidence, too, of Dr. Doyle, stated and degradation was, that they were al- that the people congregated together for ways ready to indulge in any golden dream the purpose of keeping up the animal heat which promised them relief from their in the inclement season, and by this present misery; and that when any man means also the population was increased. spoke of change-since to them no change It was true that money had been sent could be for the worse—he found ready from this country to Ireland in great listeners. It was one of the results of abundance, in times of distress; but that this state of things that had caused so money had all been laid out to relieve extensive an emigration to Scotland, the men who were starving, and the benefit greater part of the west of which was was in no way permanent, but the reverse; peopled by Irishmen. But, in fact, the because, when the money was gone, the Irish by doing this were now only return- people were not even where they were ing a visit which they had had the honour before, but by so much the worse from of receiving about two centuries ago from the encouragement which that relief had the Scotch, whose habits of industry and afforded them to increase their numbers. regularity were to this day apparent in There was, then, no alternative but emithe spots where they had taken up their gration. He was asked, what security abode. But it was not to Scotland alone he could offer to the House, that when that the evil effects of the redundancy of even this had been adopted, to whatever the population in Ireland extended them- extent, the country would not still be in selves. None of the steam-packets came the situation of the fifty daughters of an from Ireland to Liverpool, without bring- unfortunate gentleman, who were doomed ing some of the people of the former to fill tubs from which the water escaped country, who could now procure a passage as fast as they poured it into them, and for 4d. or 5d. per head. The consequence that although they might be always must be, that the same results would be changing, they would never lower the experienced here as in Ireland ; labourers level of the population. The security would be to be had for 4d. or 5d. a-day, which he had to offer was that which had and not only the labouring people would arisen from the experience of the Irish be reduced to a state of want and priva- land-holders, and which had taught them tion similar to that which was felt in Ire- to adopt a different method of letting land, but the moral feelings and the ways their farms. They had found out, that to of thinking and acting of the people would consolidate their estates was better than be reduced to that standard which, he to subdivide them. Many landlords in



Ireland had anxiously endeavoured to better the condition of their tenantry by national question ; and, indeed, it did not allotting their farms on more advantage- stand in need of demonstration, that whatous terms than formerly; but, with the ever affected Ireland, must also affect best intentions, they had failed to effect England, and the empire at large; and he their object. It was found necessary, was sure, that whatever lukewarmness therefore, to introduce into Ireland a new might be evinced by the members of his law, called the law of landlord and tenant; majesty's government, in apparently leavwhich was now working its progress, but ing the hon. gentleman who had opened without any beneficial results. He knew the discussion, in the lurch, in the manner at that moment, a gentleman who pos- they had done, it was not because they sessed an estate of six thousand acres, did not feel the force of an evil which four thousand of which were unprofit- threatened the safety of the country, but able bog. On the remaining two thou- because they doubted of any real remedy sand acres there were upwards of three from emigration. Either they did not thousand unhappy peasants settled, whose think it would operate sensibly upon the means of living were as scanty as the mass of redundant population, or that the space which they occupied was confined. expense rendered it impracticable. But, The hon. member for Wicklow said, when he heard the hon. member for " leave the Irish peasants where they are.” Bristol oppose the scheme of emigration, But, what was to become of their still in- by contrasting the condition of the people creasing families? How were they to be who lived on their farms in Upper Canada, provided for? “How," said the hon. with that of the wretched peasantry of member, “but by consolidating farms, Ireland, he confessed it gave him surprise. and abandoning that ruinous system of He spoke from his own knowledge when subdivision, which had too long brought he said, that he had seen thousands of misery and distress upon the country.” | these settlers, and that a more prosperous, But the House should look to the situa- healthy, and comfortable peasantry were tion of the unfortunate Irish peasants, if not to be found in any part of the globe. that plan were followed. Driven from There was, of course, a good deal of pritheir native haunts, they would soon be vation and hardship to be encountered at dispersed through the country, seeking the outset ; and, for four or five years, a for employment, without food or shelter. good deal of hard labour. But, at the They would live in the open air, or build end of a year or two, the settler could themselves miserable dwellings on the obtain his subsistence, and at the end of backs of ditches, sustaining nature with four or five years, his situation was enviwhatever chance provided. In this state, able, compared with that of the labourer were they not wandering at present to in England. The great labour consisted Glasgow and other places, where at last, in cutting down the wood; but when fifteen overcome by want and misery, they pe- or twenty acres were cleared, there was rished ; thus swelling, to a fearful extent, enough for one man to grow his corn the ranks of sickness and death? Was it upon, out of a soil such as hon. gentlemen not, therefore, the bounden duty of the knew not the like of for richness. An legislature to prevent that unnatural, that hon. gentleman had said, that there was frightful stream of want, misery, and a six months' winter in Canada; but this pauperism, from flowing over to this coun- was an egregious mistake, for the average try from unfortunate Ireland, and thus winter was three months at the utmost. arresting the progress of disease and death Therefore, as far as regarded the question in all their dreadful malignity?

of personal comfort, hon. gentlemen might Mr. Baring observed, that whoever had feel themselves quite easy, and rest assured listened to the able speech of the hon. that the emigrants would be taken out of Secretary opposite must be aware, that it a vast mass of misery, dependence, and was not proposed to do any thing specific consequent ignorance, and converted into in this matter, without its coming under a race of prosperous and rational beings. the consideration of the House. What- As a benefit to Ireland, it was impossible ever the fancies, then, that any particular not to see that the elevation in the scale gentleman might have, there was no reason of human beings, which would follow upon to fear that they would be carried into the contemplated removal, would be an effect without the consent of the House. I act of the greatest charity. What the means were by which an object so desirable , in long and painful journies, for the back could be effectually accomplished, was settlements ; and, although these emigraanother consideration; and, although there tions were always to the relief of the hives might be differences of opinion as to the from which they swarmed, the individuals extent to which relief should be afforded, who removed their families in this manner, still it was quite clear, that whatever plan did so at considerably greater expense should be finally adopted, and however than, with the convenience of water carlimited that plan might be, it could not riage, could be accomplished in the case fail of doing good. He confessed, with of Ireland. The passage by water would some degree of compunction, that he had serve almost the whole distance up the not attended the emigration committee river St. Lawrence, and then for two or last year as often as he ought to have three thousand miles further.—The more done; and he was, therefore, not so con- the plan was looked into, the more pracversant with the subject in its different ticable he was convinced it would appear. bearings as its importance required. The To be sure it could not be done without hon. Secretary had, as he understood, much expense; but when it was considered, brought forward the present motion with that half a million of money was subscribed a view not only to learn the feelings of by England for the alleviation of a temthe House upon it, but also to ascertain porary evil under which Ireland was sufferhow far the country at large was interested ing, it would appear obvious, that if the in the discussion. The first consideration public were fully impressed with the perundoubtedly was, whether any expense to manent advantage of removing the redunwhich the country could go, would open dant population of that country, humanity a vein sufficiently large to have any effect would prompt to its accomplishment, letupon the overloaded state of the popula- ting alone policy. As to that part of the tion. Upon this point, he was satisfied plan which anticipated the receipt of any that the excess of population was by no repayment on the part of the settlers, he means so great as was supposed. He could not regard that as much better than meant to say, that he was sure that twenty visionary. From his knowledge of the or thirty thousand in Ireland were capable settlers, they were not persons much given of creating all the misery of which they to the payment of money. Promises they had been witnesses; and that to abstract would give, but to make them pay was any portion of these, would be a positive not so easy. And, indeed, to attempt it benefit. The beneficial operation of a would be impolitic, inasmuch as it would system of emigration was seen in an empire furnish a strong inducement to throw off like Russia, where there was a great extent the allegiance to the mother country. It of territory. In America, also, the popu- was always impolitic to give to a whole lation was continually spreading itself, people an interest to throw off allegiance and might continue so to do, till they and in this case, perhaps, to turn their reached the shores of the Pacific Ocean. shillelaghs against us on the other side of Perhaps, indeed, there was too great an the Atlantic. The eagerness with which extension of the population in America for the state of Virginia entered into the rethe

purposes of civilization, and that the volution was attributable to the debts size of her territory was rather an evil which the leading members of it owed to which prevented that moderate degree of the merchants of England in their comcompression, which, under all circum- mercial dealings. As to that part of the stances, would be desirable ; but, the plan proposed in the report, respecting people of the United States took long the granting of annuities by parishes, to journies, and at considerable expense, to raise money for the endowment of their make new settlements. From New York emigrant paupers, he thought that would they went to the back part of Pennsylvania, encounter many difficulties. He was not, and even to the Mississipi, and the Ohio. however, afraid as some were, that the void Now, no man went from Massachusetts created by the draughting off of the even to the Ohio who did not incur four paupers would be forthwith filled up by times the expense, and far rnore trouble, others. Farmers in general were a great

! than would be incurred in bringing a man deal too sharp to let strangers make settlefrom the coast of Ireland to Canada. He ments in their parishes. All these topics, had seen many of the caravans which however, would be better discussed in the annually traversed the woods of America, committee.--He could not conclude without giving credit to the real and talent | before the House ; and he hoped his hon. of the hon. gentleman who had brought friend the colonial Secretary would do the subject forward ; and if the right hon. him the justice to say, that he had always Secretary for the Home Department would taken a warm and lively interest in the only come into the committee with them, present question, whatever the hon. gentlehe could assure him that he would there man who last addressed the House might find that the plan was not so visionary as infer to the contrary. If he had taken many persons were disposed to consider rather a medium view of the question--if it. To carry it into effect, it would be he had not advocated it in a way that its absolutely necessary that the restrictive supporters might have wished—he hoped laws upon captains of ships, in respect of he should not, therefore, be accused of emigrants, should be repealed at the out- displaying apathy and coldness towards set.

the question. His hon. friend who had Mr. W. Horton observed, that the re- introduced the measure, knew that he had strictions to which the hon. member al- frequently and anxiously consulted with luded were removed.

him on the subject of emigration. In the Mr. Baring in continuation observed, view which he had taken of the question, that if something like a bounty were given it struck him forcibly that it was essential to captains of ships conveying emigrants, to success not to proceed at first on a it might operate as a stimulus to their scale of emigration too extensive and magexertions to promote the comfort and con- nificent, but rather to proceed by a rational venience of those whom they convey- and quiet mode to effect the object in view. ed. Some suitable preparations should That there were facilities for carrying the also be made to provide for the reception plans proposed into execution none could of the emigrants on arriving at their des- deny. His noble friend at the head of the tination. Care should be taken that they colonial department, his hon. friend who should be sent with all convenient facility had brought forward the present motion, to whatever settlement they were intended and himself had had repeated interviews for, otherwise a great deal of incon- on the subject; the result of which was, venience might arise. In Quebec, for in- that a gentleman, colonel Cockburn, whose stance, which contained a limited popula- zeal and talents were unquestionable, tion, the introduction of a large number had gone out to Nova Scotia and elseof emigrants might create a serious injury. where, for the purpose of personally obThe means of conveying persons up the serving how far the proposed plans of country were of late considerably improved, emigration were likely to succeed. He and some method could most likely be had instructions to extend his inquiries to adopted, by which emigrants could be various subjects connected with the agriculremoved up the country without incon- tural prospects of those places which he veniencing the residents. Preparations was to visit, and to make observations reshould also be made for the reception of specting the quality of the different lands the emigrants when they arrived at their pointed out for settlers. He was further final destination. Without some precau- instructed to make a full report of every tions of the nature he suggested, consider thing connected with the subject that fell able confusion and inconvenience would, within his observation, so that government in all likelihood, occur. The Cape of might have some rational ground on which Good Hope, and the new Spanish colonies to erect whatever plans it might adopt afforded facilities for emigration, if the with regard to the subject of emigration. same precautions were observed there that Before the committee closed its labours, he had just suggested. The hon. gentle- he hoped that the report from the gentleman concluded by observing, that the man referred to would appear, in order to country was very much indebted to the furnish fresh evidence on which to found zeal and talents displayed by the hon. whatever proceedings the committee might Secretary for the colonies in bringing for- ultimately adopt. His hon. friend proward the present motion.

posed no plan at present. He merely threw Mr. Secretary Peel said, he felt anxious, out suggestions for the consideration of in consequence of the personal reference the House. And what was the amount of which the hon. gentleman had made to the objections raised by the hon. member him, to explain his views and feelings for Wicklow? Why, that the House with respect to the important subject now ) should abandon the plan proposed by his


hon. friend, because it did not go far should merely say, that they were questions enough for his purpose. But, if the sug- deserving the most serious, minute, and gestion of the hon. gentleman were to be attentive, consideration of a committee; but acted upon, the House might abandon, in he should be sorry to pronounce any utter hopelessness, every plan that would positive opinion which could, by any posbe at all likely to alleviate that deep-seated sibility, prejudice the discussion of those distress which could never be sufficiently two measures. It appeared to him that, deplored. For himself, he was of opinion, for the first experiment, men of fair and that a rational system of emigration would honest characters, and of industrious lead to effects the most beneficial to the habits, ought to be selected, and if the country, by affording facilities to its im- parishes were to pay a certain sum for poverished inhabitants of bettering their each labourer who should be sent out by condition. And it was idle to deny that the government, he was not prepared to say we must expect a redundancy of hands, in that the parish would select the most a country where mechanical science was active and industrious parishioners for carried to such a pitch of perfection. The emigration. He did think, that the most effect of the recent improvements in ma- minute inquiry ought to be made into the chinery was, to throw upon the country a state of health, and into the habits, of vast number of men who had hitherto sup- every man selected by the parish, before ported themselves by labour. Such, for he was sent out by the government; and instance, had been the effect of the dis- also, whether the legal expenses which covery of the power loom. It threw out would be necessarily incurred by the payof employment hundreds of thousands; if, ment of the money by the parishes, with therefore we were to go on improving in other circumstances, would not countermechanics, as we had heretofore done, our balance any good which could arise, even working population must be thrown out of if both parties—the payers of the pooremployment, according as new inventions rates, and the persons receiving those rates sprung up to supersede the labour of -should consent (and the consent of man. Would it not, therefore, be an object both parties would be absolutely necessary) the most desirable, that some good and as to the persons who should emigrate. efficient plan should be adopted, by which Even in that case, the obstacles which would those poor unemployed persons might be encumber the plan, might make it so diffirescued from a state of wretchedness and cult of execution, that he was not prepared want, and raised to a race of happy and to say that they were not deserving of the contented beings? He thought that, by most serious consideration of a committee. making an outlet for the redundant popula- Those difficulties would not be applicable tion, permanent relief would be afforded to Ireland, because, in that country, there to Ireland; for she would then be enabled were no poor-rates; and, with respect to to carry into effect the good she had emigration from Ireland, some other already begun, by breaking up the system method must necessarily be devised. As of division in the land, by which a man, to the other suggestion, of requiring from perhaps, and his five sons, were wretched the emigrants compensation for the exlandowners rather than comfortable la- pense incurred by government, it deserved bourers. But, in order to effect this im- serious consideration, whether or not the provement, the impediment of a large discouraging prospect of re-payment, bepauper population must be removed. It fore the eyes of the emigrant, might not was clear, then, that the amendment, which operate as a temptation to him to quit his went to shut out inquiry, was not such as farm after he had exhausted it, and before the House should attend to. He was not the period of repayment should have arthen prepared to pronounce any opinion rived. It also deserved serious and upon the two suggestions which had been minute consideration, whether, in case the commented upon by hon, members in the scheme of emigration should be carried to course of the debate ; namely, the requir- a great extent, the government might ing from parishes to pay to government a not be amply repaid by another method, remuneration for the expenses incurred in different from either of the two to taking out the labourers, and thereby lessen- which he had alluded. What could be ing the poor-rates; and the repayment of more fair, than reserving to the governa sum of money from the emigrants them- ment a portion of land, in the midst of the selves in the shape of quit rent. He lands granted to the emigrants. It was

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