GUIZOT. Bravo, Metternich! By your talk there is no difficulty in recognising you as the first pillar of absolutism-the most hoary-headed and consummate diplomatist of European cabinets.

METTERNICH. Well! and was my policy in any way ambiguous? It has been ever one and the same, as its end is one and the same that of never yielding. I always said that we never could relax in severity, or dissolve our union, without being lost. You, in your timidity and embarrassments, still wanted to act, but you did not dare. You feared the journalists and the idle stories of the day; and lost yourselves in scrawling long tirades in your Débats, which caused me real concern. In the Switzerland and Sunderbund questions you attained to the acme of folly. Why despatch notes to the courts? Why so many vain threats against radicalism? Why propose a coalition of princes, and an armed intervention in Switzerland, when you were assured of nothing? You have compromised us; you have revealed our impotence. These things ought to be done, but secretly; seek the opportunity, put on the wolf's hide, and show the lion's claws only at the proper moment.

LOUIS PHILIPPE. Our infirm policy was an effect of our false position. We could not act differently. To have stood out on this last occasion would have conducted us to more speedy and certain ruin. For seventeen years I held the haughty people of France in external nullity. I sought to direct towards Africa the national effervescence; I did my utmost to establish my dynasty upon the throne; I surrounded myself with purchased nobility, since mild monarchies cannot exist without nobility; I ousted from the national representation the middle class, which is the great prop of liberty in all times; I bought over the heads of the army and placed my sons at its head; by cavils of every kind I weakened the National Guard, always the guarantee of liberty; I entered into intrigues, proposed marriages in Spain-family alliances. Collisions arose between the people and the princes in Germany, in Italy, Switzerland, and Greece, in the west and in the east. I feigned to cajole the people, but I speedily placed my hand upon the scale of kings, and forced it to kick the beam for us. But, in a word, I had neither the love nor the esteem of the French, and on the first bel trarre we went together into the air.

METTERNICH. When I think of the pitiful manner in which you effected your escape from the soil of France, I cannot refrain from laughter. I have been told that you arrived in London costumed as if you had issued from one of Dante's caverns.

LOUIS PHILIPPE. You have no cause to laugh at me. The populace, if they had caught you, would have made a fine figure of you. Considering, then, that the Parisians had every reason to drive me out of France, and that the Viennese, perhaps, were wrong in ousting you from the empire, I rather congratulate myself upon my mishaps.

METTERNICH. But I was not king.

GUIZOT. A truce to jests, which are unworthy of the exalted personages we are or have been. But do you believe, sir ex-minister of Austria, that it is actually over with kings?

METTERNICH. You will excuse me, but I have never regarded you as a profound diplomatist. You were the right arm of Louis Philippe, his good servant, and nothing more. Are these queries of your own conceit ?

GUIZOT. A truce, I say, to idle jesting. Already must the French have repented of their republic. They see the abyss, the disorder, the misery which it produces.

METTERNICH. Follies again. What has misery to do with the monarchy or republic? The present distress is the effect of neither; but of agitation and the general uncertainty. The rich do not occupy themselves in commerce or industry, nor in monied enterprise, because they fear communism and war; whilst for the artisans, who needs must eat, employment should be found for them either in manufactories or in fighting on the plains of Europe. As for France, which you ought to know more of than I, I have no questions to ask. With reference to Italy and Germany

LOUIS PHILIPPE. Permit me. I allow that in France all is lost. If France were in the present position of England-if the number of proletarii, of artisans, and of paupers, were as great as they are there, it would not be difficult for me, by dint of corruption and gold, to place myself at the head of such a party, and to hold the throne by means of the people and of the impoverished; while I could not have succeeded in retaining it by means of the great; but France is not yet in the position of England. Enough: we shall see in what way general events turn out. If the French remain quiet, I shall easily find means to excite them amongst themselves; either through the socialists and the starving artisans, or by means of the Legion of Honour and cordons. But if they leave their own domestic matters-if they manage to turn towards foreign affairs their restless activity and ambitious views, all is lost for me! But tell me what you would say of Italy, of Germany, and of the agony ofof kings.

METTERNICH. I believe that for the present it were better to allow our salvation to come from those who now banter us with caricatures, journals, libels, and the like. I say that the salvation of princes should spring from the follies of their subjects. Do you believe that I should wish this ferment against kings to last? It will endure until the people shall first have experienced anarchy, radicalism, and dictatorship. History nowhere tells us that a people passes thus dryshod from slavery to liberty without first falling into these extremes.

PALMERSTON. But under the kings the people were slaves. METTERNICH. I do not say they should be slaves; but I say that order, and even a little absolutism, is always better than disorder and anarchy. In cabinet affairs there is no talk of evil and of good. The question is to choose of two evils the lesser-that, in fact, which is the best.

LOUIS PHILIPPE. Proceed with the argument which you undertook to explain, and do not interrupt the thread of ideas with misplaced interrogations.

METTERNICH. If the Austrians have good sense-if they are not the imbeciles which they have shown themselves by turning me out, and constructing a borrowed constitution, which, in the manner it has been. made, can never last, and by making a revolution at a moment when there was the greatest need of internal concord-if the Austrians had sense, I say, they ought to defend themselves, but not fight in Lombardy; rather allow things to come of themselves to maturity. First of all, everything must be yielded to Hungary and Bohemia-an enlightened view taken of internal affairs. The finances are one vast chaos!!

A coalition should be formed under the rose with the Prussians, the English, and all the kings falling or fallen; Italy and Germany be put into collision with each other; and the German bishops alarmed in the affairs of the Pope. Finally, a new synod at once erected in opposition to Rome, whilst the Pope should be declared a decayed Jacobite-the destroyer of the spiritual and temporal power of the papacy, &c., &c.

PALMERSTON. I think you will not succeed. In the first place, because the Pope has too much popularity in Europe; and these synods do not succeed. You have an example in Napoleon. Secondly, Germany and Italy have interests too analogous to come into collision with each other. Both desire a centralisation, both wish emancipation from their leaders. Both are exasperated with the tyranny they have suffered, from vain promises, from nominal constitutions.

METTERNICH. If I do not get an opening from this side, I shall look for it with more probability in another quarter. When the Italians shall find themselves in proper authority, when they shall imagine they have driven out the Austrians, for I believe that (new to European affairs) they are not far-sighted; what will they do? the Unitarians, the Republicans, the Radicals, who are the strongest, and those who (with reason) desire a general union, or at least a certain centralisation of the various Italian governments, since, on the other hand, with disunion, independence and liberty do not predominate in the face of France and other great nations, what will they do? Certainly, in the general medley, it will be necessary to restore the temporal monarchy of the popes, it will be requisite to throw off the King of Piedmont, and to alienate from each other these two principal promoters and supporters of the common cause against foreigners. The Roman monarchy, allied with the King of Piedmont, will raise its head, because, having redeemed Italy, the Radicals owe him gratitude and obedience. The Radicals will then have the stage to themselves, and with their sacrifices, their unity, their Italian independence, and animosity unloosed against all the monarchs of the world, whatever their race, whether Legitimists or Ecclesiastics, anarchy they cannot avoid. If the Italian cause disconnects itself from the cause of Rome (which cannot remain united) then I triumph (salto); I declare myself immediately for the Pope, and for religion, and will create myself a strong party in Italy.

PALMERSTON. Others may do so, perhaps, but not you. You are now getting into the vale of years, and have no right to think of new disorders in this world. You are so hated by all people, that it is impossible for you to exercise any influence over them. Yet you still speak as a minister of Austria, and the first candidate of the councils of the Powers. You forget your present downfal.

METTERNICH. Whether I or others, it matters not. I say that the tendency of general events is this: Austria will soon fall upon Italy, which will then be torn to pieces between the two parties, who meddle only to éclater. I have never read in any history that a people can be overcome without a strong party being maintained amongst themselves. Our present intention should be to unite all monarchs great or small, constitutional or absolute, to vow discord in France, in Germany, in Italy, wherever the people are dominant, republics, or anarchy. I still maintain in Italy vast connexions-money-emissaries.

LOUIS PHILIPPE. But might not Pio IX. be one of the greatest legis

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lators in the world? might he not be able to give the last shake to the already decaying papacy, to create again or revive a great people?

METTERNICH. No, no; he has entered a labyrinth. Besides, it appears to me, from many indications that I have perceived, that Pio Nono may yet be too tender of the temporal and pontifical prerogatives, which are so easily confounded with those of religion. That good theologian, Gioberti, has in politics launched great thunderbolts (stramberie) at the Primate of Italy. He makes me laugh. His works have, perhaps, undeceived the Pontiff and the King of Piedmont, who were the first to make concessions to the people in order to acquire popularity for. themselves, or from ambitious aims. But the times are no longer those when men trusted in the infallibility and divinity of popes. Those times. of the moral pontifical power will be renewed when the present opinions of men shall undergo a change, when theocracy returns, and the superstitious republicanism of the middle ages.

LOUIS PHILIPPE. And, therefore, do you believe that in her moral, political, and financial dissolution, that Austria can ever set foot in Italy again?

METTERNICH. With exclusive dominion, perhaps not. But if anarchy, the general dissolution, and a war in Poland should be excited, if Russia shall be constrained to ally herself with Austria, and with the kings supplanted by their people, then war, an European war, being the consequence, the German, Italian, and Polish people, &c., will never be able to acquire nationality or independence, because they will never be able to act of themselves alone. They will be dependent on French assistance, and will be subject (as the progressists say) to their influence. Enough, that Italy will not be left to itself, whether France or another may possess it, and that in this case Austria should have compensation elsewhere.

GUIZOT. Indeed, you are a false prophet. You foretold neither the insurrection of Paris nor of Vienna, nor mine nor your own disgrace. I have little faith in your prophecies.

METTERNICH. These are particular cases. They have no influence on general events. As for me, I have always said that it was requisite to hold out; however, little was yielded in my case; for me all was over. If any such concessions would content these people, it should be fair dealing on the part of the king (sarelbe bello fare il re ed il ministro), but they are insatiable and ungrateful. Until they saw us utterly despoiled, and void of all authority, they were not contented. The Pope commenced, the Duke of Tuscany and the King of Piedmont followed, the King of Naples was constrained to yield. The Italians made a great to do about the concessions they had obtained. The pride of the French was put to too severe an experiment; there the Italians had the superiority over them. Then (as you are aware) was played the fine game you know of. Europe is (in fact) a chaos.

GUIZOT. But the end of these questions of ours, what is it? Will kings continue to govern people, or will the people begin to rule over the kings?

PALMERSTON. The reasoning of the matter has two aspects. 1st. If France does not cross the Rhine, if Russia does not cross the Vistula, if the Polish war and a general bouleversement does not arise, if Germany and Italy are left alone in their disorder, then after hot civil strife, perhaps war, an European war being imminent, the ousted, or at least di

minished (eclipati) kings, will come forth with some nationality (Austria, be it understood, being repulsed from Italy), and for the future will be a barrier for Russia and for France. 2nd. If the Polish revolution breaks out, or general war, then the question of nationality (da nasionale) becomes European, as in the days of Napoleon. Russia, to avoid being hemmed in amongst her deserts, should unite with Austria and with all the falling, or fallen kings, France should join with the cause of the people, occupy the mountains of Switzerland and the Tyrol as her bulwarks, interfere in the affairs of Switzerland and Italy, and deal terrific blows on the Russians in the camps of Germany. The war terminated, Italy and Germany should be contented with the understanding which will at once be given to them in the general adjustment. In this case, better days will smile upon kings; and good, or otherwise, will be the condition of the people, according to the force, the union, or the disunion of these. Inasmuch as refers to the noble Polish nation, its strength will not be, perhaps, ever proportioned to the dangers to which she will be subjected. Napoleon was wont to say that Polish independence could only be thoroughly obtained at Moscow. Who will support the Poles-France? But are the interests of France for independence and the Polish unity in proportion to the sacrifices to be made? Will Russia see the keys of the north lost with Poland, become Asiatic, and diminish in importance with Europe, without a long and bitter war-without, perhaps, immense compensation on the side of the Dardanelles and Greece?

METTERNICH. The whole question, then, is reduced to the monarchy of the people; the greater and more extended the anarchy shall be, the greater and more extended the hopes of kings. Let our primary object be to foster civil war, and nourish dissensions. The elements are not wanting. Of Italy I have spoken to you. Of France you know, or ought to know, more than myself. Germany contains dissolving elements not less powerful than Italy. Divided amongst petty princes, thrown between Austria and Prussia-between a constitution and anarchybetween the various powers of kings, nobles, the middle class, Catholicism and Protestantism-how will she be enabled to establish a central and strong government, without passing through long and violent convulsions and a civil war? Many will have recourse to (the) kings, and will believe themselves happy in being able for a while to repose under the strength of their arm; allowing that which before they had denied, and desiring that which now they would renounce. But already as regards you, sir ex-king of France, and you, Monsieur Guizot, it is a settled thing. You are no longer necessary in European politics. You can amuse yourselves happily in writing the story of your disgrace. As for me, my long experience will still indubitably make me much in request amongst the northern courts as an instrument to establish the equilibrium of the powers and forces. Gentlemen, I salute you and go to my labours.

GUIZOT. I, to read the French papers.

LOUIS PHILIPPE. I, to pay a visit to Westminster with my family. PALMERSTON. I, to draw up with the stenographer the summary of this our first conference, in order to inscribe it in the secret acts to be sent to the courts.