ty of. No man was a warmer advocate for a liberal confidence in the King's Minifters for the time than he was, well knowing that there might very properly be fecret motives for their conduct, which the fafety of the state required to be kept from the knowledge of the public; at the fame, he thought that the House had an undoubted title, as trustees and guardians of the public treasure, to every information relative to its expenditure, that could be obtained without endangering the fafety of the ftate, by harraffing Minifters to difclofe what ought to remain fecret.-What he plainly and fimply wifhed to know he should flate thus: Firft, Whether from the prefent fituation of this country, and the general fate of Europe, his Majefty's Minifters confidered it to be the neceffary policy of this country to keep up a greater naval eftablishment than was formerly done in time of peace! Or fecondly, Whether it was intended entirely to alter the former system, and to make a permanent increafe of the peace establishntent?-On the first point he could not fay that he was inclined to argue now, because he was not in poffef fion of fuch fufficient information as his Majefty's Minifters must be, from their official fituations; he was forry he did not fee the Right Honourable Gentleman in his place, but he faw others materially connected with the naval department, whom he made no doubt were able to answer him perfely. As to the fecond point, he cerainly would not vote for any increase of the peace eftablishment that must bring a permanent additional burthen upon the country; his confcience dictated to him that he ought to make this enquiry, and he trusted he fhould have an explicit answer, otherwife he should not vote for the refolution now moved. The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, he understood that the Right Honourable Gentleman was very defirous to have an exact account of the expences attending the late armament, diftinct from the estimates of the current year; and as far as it was poffi. ble to feparate them, he would be ready to ftate to the Houfe, and could affure the Right Honourable Gentleman, that it was his intention to lay before the House a very particular and minute detail of every article that had been done in confequence of the late difference with the Court of Spain, and the confequent armament. With regard to the prefent vote for 24,000 feamen, he did not think it was poffible entirely to feparate that from the current expences, becaufe the difmantling of fo great a fleet could take place but gradually, and there might even Le a neceffity for keeping up a greater peace establishment than formerly, as he would not hesitate to say, that his Majcíly's Mi nifters confidered that the prefent ftate of Europe demanded that a greater naval force fhould be kept up than the last peace establishment, at least for a fhort time; and that they took this to be the policy which England ought to follow in the prefent fitua tion of affairs. He faid, that it would very foon, in the course of the business which he meant to fubmit to the Houfe, be neceffary to examine the peace establishments that had taken place at different times previous to fettling what ought, in the prefent circumftances, to be the permanent cftablishment; but he did not think it would be poffible to bring that on before Christmas, as it would require much ferious confideration,and was a fubject which he, as much as any body, wifhed might meet with an ample difcuffion. Mr Fox, in reply, faid, that finding from what had fallen from the Right Honourable Gentleman, that his Majesty's Ministers confidered it to be the policy of this country, from the general ftate of Europe at prefent, to increase the peace establishment, he would moft cheerfully give his vote for the motion, referving to himself, however, the right to reafon upon the general, state of Europe, and the present state of this country, when other matters might be under difcuffion to which that reafoning would apply. The Speaker then put the queftion, that this refolution be read a fecond time which was carried. Mr Martin prefented a petition from John Horne Tooke, Efq; the contents of which were, as follows: "That he, as an elector of the city of Westminster, obferved, with great concern, the conftant outrages and acts of violence" committed during the time of Election for members to ferve in parliament for that city, and which still continued, as if no Attorney-general was in being, or no Houfe of Commons in the nation-That 17,000 electors of Westminster, who have all a right to vote for reprefentatives, have been deprived of their franchifes-That the great expence attending appeals to that Houfe, from perfons who are declared to be not elected, is so heavy, as renders it almoft impoffible for any man to bring his complaint before that iqufe, which, although ftill called the House of Commons, it is notorious that places, or feats, in that House, are conftantly bought and fold, the fame as ftands in a market. It then takes notice of the election in 1784, and that wherein Lord John Townshend was returned member, and of which election the petitioner complains, as well as of the return made at the last election. The petition concludes with a prayer, that the Houfe will take fuch measures as may in future regulate the побе mode of fiction for the city of Weftminfter." Upon the above petition being read by the clerk, the Houfe appeared in no fmall ftate of confufion, not knowing, from its very extraordinary tendency, its contemptuous language, and the novelty of its prayer, under what head of petitions it should be claffed. It is however neceffary, according to act of Parliament, to fix a day and hour for confidering of all petitions touching elec. tions; and in confequence of that act, it was appointed for the 4th of February. HOUSE OF LORDS. MONDAY, Dec. 13. The Earl of Kinnoul moved for the production of all Memorials prefented to and received from Spain, between foth of July, and 28th of October laft, relative to the fhips captured in Nootka Sound, and the negociation that followed thereon. The motion being oppofed by the Duke of Montrofe, and the queflion put, it paffed in the negative. The order of the day was then read for taking into confideration the declara tion and counter-declaration and convention with Spain. did directly atone for that aggreffion The next confideration is the injury; and it is now the duty of your Lordfhips to fee whether the Convention does not amply repair the damage; and whe ther it does not alfo procure for England advantages of a high and important kind. Look, my Lords, to the firft and fecond Articles of the Convention, and you will fee that reftitution is to be inade, and reparation to the parties injured. But this is not all-What has been fubject of litigation, is now finally adjusted, and Spain concedes the navigation of thofe feas. We are not only restored to Nootka, but may participate in a more northern fettlement, if preferable fo the carrying on the trade. The great queftion of the Southern Fishery is finally established, on fuch grounds as must prevent all future difpute.-Advantageous permiffion is given us to erect temporary buildings; and by a ftipulation of the utmost importance, all violence, in cafes of infraction, arc prohibited-no officer muft venture to feize a veffet which he may deem to have infringed the Treaty, but he muft content himfelf with writing home to his Court. Thefe, my Lords, are advantages of a very important kin derived from this Convention, and which amply repay the amount of the fum which the armament has coft. And yet, out of doors, I have heard of murmurs that the expence was not only enormoully great, but unneceffarily incurred. If there are any confiderable men in this Houfe who are of that opinion, I hop: they will come forward and ftate expli- " citly their reafons for fo thinking. I frankly ftate my confidence in his Majefty's Minifters, and I think them highly deferving of the fupport of your Lordfhips, and of thanks for the dignified and prudent manner in which they have con ducted this negociation; I beg leave, now, my Lords, to move, The Duke of Montrofe. I now rife to call your Lordships attention to the difcuffion of thefe important papers, and to move an Addrefs of thanks to his Majefty thereon. My Lords, the paternal goodness of his Majefty, difplayed in his expreffions of anxiety for the continuance of the bleffings of peace, call upon us for the warmeft teftimonies of grateful affection, and particularly as we find by thefe important papers, that his Majefty evidently felt an equal anxiety for the honour of his Crown, and the effential interests of his peopie. The wildom and dignity with which the negociation has been conducted, has not only pre- "That an humble Addrefs be prefent-1 ferved to us thofe bleffings of peace, at "ed to his Majesty, humbly to exprefs all times fo defirable, but has preferved" to his Majefty, that, having taken to the nation advantages highly impor- "into confideration the Declarations tant to its navigation and commerce. "exchanged between his Majefty's AmThe difpute between the Courts of Great" baffador and the Minifler of the Britain and Spain, as flated in his Ma- "Catholic King, and the Convenjefty's meflage of May laft, is naturally "tion, fince concluded for terminating to be viewed in two lights-in the infult" the difference which had arifen with on the flag of Britain-and in the injury "the Court of Spain: done to its trade. His Majefly declared in his meffage, that the infuit must be repaired previous to any difcuffion of the injury; and we fee, that accordingly the Declaration of the Catholic King, L' Vou. XII: No. 74. That this Houle feel themfelves "bound to return his Majesty their most dutiful acknowledgements for the pa"ternal regard to the rights and inter"efts of. his people, manifefted on the " occafion Lord Avdon-I rife, my Lords, with uncafinefs, to gave a negative to the motion of the noble Duke, becaufe no Lord would have rifen with more fervent alacrity than myself to have joined in expreffions of gratitude and thanks to his Majefy for the fentimen's of benevo ent regard to the happiness of his people, which his Majefty's moft gracious Geech breathed: But minilers have ought fit to couple the great convention with the motion for the Addrels, that they may feize on the loyalty of the Houle, and bend it to their ten poay ufe. I prefume, they think it a matter of convenience, thus to draw from certain equivocal expreffions, an opinion that may afterwards be fet up to preclude the Houte from all future difcution. If I knew any way of retain ing fo much of the Duke's motion for an Addrefs, as fimply expreffed the thanks of the Houfe for his Majefly's goodness, I would be proud to preferve the unanimity which was mani elled on the return to his speech; but they have fo adroitly incorporated the approbation of the measure, that I am reduced to the necefity of moving an Address of. Thanks to his Majesty unconnected with other matter: We know nothing myLords, of the true hiftory of the negociation, on the conduct and fue of which minifters call for our thanks. They withhold from us the means of judgment, and yet claim our praife. Confidence, that generous quality which led us, in our deliberative capacity in the laft feffion of the laft Parliaiment, to trust them implicitly with the conduct of the negociation, would change its character, and become fomething even worse than weakness; if now that the egotiation is ended, we were to con tinue to give it. In my profeffionat capacity I would with promptitude go forth at the command of my Sovereign and discharge the duty confiied in we by my commander, without inquiry and without diftruft; but the war being over, I would, in my place in this Houfe, think myself bound to cali en Minitters to prove the juice of the war in which they had involved their country. Laft year Minifters thought proper to refule us all information. Even the date of a refcript was improper to be given, although the Court of Spain could not pofibly acquire, by fuch dif cloture any information which they did not previou v polfes. But is it now to be denied'? And are we to facrifice ar functions-to overlook our duty-and to pals a vote of approbation, without knowing whether Miniers may not be actually criminal in what they have done? Suppofe, my Lords, that the Commons Toufe of Parliament shoul!, in process of time, find ground for the impeachment of Minifters in this very Negociation, fhould we not go intoWeftminster Hall under aukward circumftances, with the prejudgment of this Addrets in our Journals; The noble Duke fays, that the points to be confidered are-1, Whether the infult giver to the national honour be atoned for amply?--and 2, Whether the advantages gained are equal to the injury and expence? I diffent totally from this fatement. The firft and otvious quellion is—Was there an infult given to the national honour? He pallès over this effential firft enquiry, for the best of all reafons, becaule he fees Mnifters have denied the Houfe the means of afcertaining the fact. No noble Lord can be more decided than myself in the opinion that national honour is a fubftantial ground for war. The honour of a nation is as facred and as delicate as the honour of a gentleman. The nation that fubmits to be infulted is of a quality that requires not time and calculation to comprehend.It is felt the moment that it is committed. It is not like a damage to be weighed and balanced-Pure spirit and proper feeling act the moment they are affailed. How did his Majefty's Minifters treat this pretended in ult? We know from the published memorials of M. de Florida Blanca, and M. de Vanguyon, (which I quote, because no Minifter, however hey may withold papers from the houfe will invalidate their teftimony, teftimony,) that information was officialty given of this infult on the 10th of February. What did they do on the occafion? They never canie forward to avenge the infult, and maintain the honour of England till the 5th of May. What can the Houfe collect from this, but that either the infult is a mere pretext taken up to antwer another purpose which they did not think it fafe to avow, or they dallied with the honour of their country. If I were to indulge a conjec ture, I fhould fay, that the firft of thefe was the true caufe of all this vioient bustle. Looking back to certain rumours, and particularly to all the warm encomiums on the gallantry and heroifm of the King of Sweden, with which the Minifterial Papers were fo fully charged, I should infer that the Spring was pregnant with a defign to affift the Northern Warrior: but taat, fenfible the nation would not much relifhthedefign,and that the Noble Earl who commanded the fleet would not have been perfectly pleafed to have gone to the Baltic, they thought a little bullying of the Spaniards a fealonable thing, both for concealment and popularity. That they afterwards changed their system, and abandoned that Monarch to his fate, only proves that they conducted their fyftem as weakly as they undertook it unwifely. But I again aver, that it is indipenfible to our faithful difcharge of the duty that we owe to our country, to demand the means of afcertaining the true nature and extent of the infult, by which we may go properly into the examination of the fecond part of a rational courfe of inquiry into the manner in which they conducted themfelves in this infult, granting that it was committed. I certainly will not think the expence incurred too great, if it fhall be fairly eftablished that any expence was neceffary. hold it as an incontrovertible axiom, that nothing but pofitive neceffity could jullify Minifters in purting us to the hazard of a war. I thall not be controverted when I affert, fhortly, that our expence for the three years, ending in January 1787, 1788, and 1789, exceed ed our increafe 700,ocol a year, inftead of our having, as the Minister promised us, a million of furplus-A growing debt demanded, therefore, that we fhould, by every poffible means, preferve the bleffing of peace, that we might improve the advantages which the fortuitous concurrence of circumftances put within our grafp. Shall we then fit down contented, and not enquire how Lord Sydney. I confefs my aftenishment, my L. ids, at hearing the obfervations that have fallen from the Noble Lord. I may be fupposed to be partial to Minifters, from having left the Cabinet fo lately; an! I fairy acknowledge my parality; but did lever expect to hear the charged with being anxious to involve their country in war, or to inflame the minds of their fellow-citizens with lib.rality and rancour against other nations? But above all the rest, did I ever expect to hear in this noble House, that thefe charges against them were to be drawn from rumour-from the Minifteria! prints-I thank God I read none of them-and from converfation out of doors. His Majelly's Ministers must be firangely changed in their difpofitions 1, 2 defined. fince I had the honour to fit among joyed before they came to be so abfurdiy them, if they are now difpofed to involve ther country in a war, or to encumber it with unneceffary expences. I beg leive to bear my humble teftimony to the merit of their labours in this Negoci ation. They have in my mind accomplified all that they pledged themselves to obtain And I was indeed furprifed, that a noble Earl, from whom I have received much Paruamentary information, fhould have moved for all the papers of the Negociation that could not be difclofed without danger to the State; and for the production of which, I will venture to fay, he cannot produce a fingle precedent. I was not surprised that the noble Earl's friends did not think proper to fupport the queftion. The Earl of Kinnoul. The noble Lord, if he had taken the trouble to attend to the words of my motion, would have found that I did not defire all the papers, but only the memorials, papers which in their nature cannot be dangerous to difclofe; and that there is a precelent, let the noble Lord look to the cafe of Faulkland's Filand, where he will find, that more papers than I afked for were cheerfully granted. Lord Portchefer. My Lords the motion of my noble friend was not only dictated by diferetion, but by attentive regard to that nicety which Minifters affect. The noble Earl afted for icis, perhaps, than he ought; certainly for nothing more than ought to be given, if we are at all to enter into the difcuffion of the fubject. I cannot conceal from your Lordships my fentiments, that I expect ed rather to meet this matter in the fhape of impeachment than in the nape of Addrefs for Thanks. A conduct fo abfurd and penicious-fo deftitute of all policy -to fruitful of danger and fo barren of advantage-I will be bold to fay the hiftory of nations cannot exhibit. Bullying fo unprovoked, evaporating at length in a Convention fo unireaning Confidence given fo liberally, and to rewarded, I defy any Lord to parallel in his reading, much lefs in his experience. It is, in fact, a bubble, fuccefstully lawn up, at a critical conjun Qure, to enable Minifters, under the fictitious name of an Armament, to influence General Election in uch a way as to bind the majority in the fervice of Minifters. The noble Lord having made a preface to this effet, entered into a critical examination of the Convention, feriatim, in which he alledged, that he faw nothing but a mere con.ufion of rights bett: en The Marquis of Lansdowne. It has ever, my Lords, been a maxim of my life, that literal confidence is due to those who fuftain the fevere refponsibility of office. In difficult fituations, where inen at at their peril, and chufe to encoun ter the hazard of their owu fyflem, they ought, in my mind, to receive from their country a degree of rational truft. But, my Lords, ior this very reafon, it is the more incumbent on Minifters to give a clear account, when the day of account comes. If, inftead of concealment and confidence, Minifters chofe in the firft inLance to take Parliament along with them, they might afterwards, fairly enough, take their juft proportion of blame-if blame there was, or they might ufe to them the language of an accomplice of guilt, and fay-" Do not be over inquifitive, for if you are, the injured country may difcover that we are both to blame." But where Minifters in the first place, call for confidence on the folemn promise that they will fland the peril, and, when the engagement comes to be wound up, throw themselves again on this majority for protection, the matter is ferious indeed. The Conftitution is wounded in its vitals. We are no longer a Free Parlia ment, nor in truth a Parliament at all. Our functions at least are gone, and the exterior remains only to perpetuate the dooin of the country. My Lords, I proteft that I cannot yield to the evidence of my fenfes. Do I hear righth-is it poffible, that after the ratification of the Treaty is made known to you, Minifters call for commendation and refuse you documents? Do they, indeed, tell you that they chufe to postpone the papers ad Graças calendas, and only put you to the trouble, in the mean time, to approve their conduct? The noble Vilcount feys, that his Majesty's Minifters must be frangely changed fince he fat among them, if they are now difpofed to involve their country in a war; I can fay with truth, that they are indeed much changed fince I was connected with them; and your Lordships will forgive me if I glance at a matter so personal to myfelf, as the peace of 1782, which I fhall do, without meaning to gain any confideration-to it from the referenc.. That peace, if it was good for any thing was good on account of the fimplicity of is principles. It went upon that great and benevolent principle to which the noble Lord who moved the previous quef |