jority of Gentlemen who represented those | ble-that the people of Lower Canada two portions of the country, he had felt it his would be content with this arrangement. duty to cause two separate bills to be pre- How stood this case? Lower Canada pared, in order to extend the benefit of contained a population of 700,000 souls, this measure to Ireland and Scotland. As and possessed the whole navigation of the the matter had been fully discussed on a river St. Lawrence to the sea; while former occasion, without, as it appeared to Upper Canada, with no such advantage, him, any objection to the principle of the contained only 400,000 inhabitants. When present bill, he should feel it an unwar- the inequality between the two provinces rantable trespass on the time of the House was so great, it afforded a strong reason if he were to do more than move that the for supposing that Lower Canada would bill be read a second time. not be content with the proposed division of the representation. But he objected to this division on another ground. He objected to it because, while in the first instance it inflicted injustice upon Lower Canada, it would ultimately prove unjust to Upper Canada. If the population of that province increased, as it assuredly would, by means of extensive immigration, then in a few years its numbers would preponderate, and the weight of representation, as compared with numbers, would be in favour of Lower Canada. The Upper Province would feel the injustice of this unequal representation, which could not be remedied, unless Parliament again interfered. He therefore

Mr. F. Maule would not oppose the motion, but would give the hon. and learned Gentleman warning of his intention to propose many alterations in the bill when in committee, upon which he should take the sense of the House. He was opposed to capital punishment in every case where it was not likely to be attended with a good effect as an example; because he held that it was not an act of vengeance, but an act which was resorted to for the purpose of deterring others from following in the footsteps of those who suffered the extreme sentence of the law. Bill read a second time.

HOUSE OF LORDS,
Thursday, July 9, 1840.

MINUTES.] Bills. Read a first time:-Blenhiem Palace
Repairs.-Read a second time :-Arms (Ireland); Mas-

ters in Chancery.

Petitions presented. By the Bishop of Exeter, from Drog

heda, Nenagh, Maryborough, Cloyne, and many other

places, against any system of National Education not

under the superintendence of the Established Clergy.

GOVERNMENT OF CANADA.] On the report of the Canada Government Bill being brought up, and several amendments agreed to,

Lord Ellenborough adverted to clause 12, which enacts that

"The parts of the said province which now constitute the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada respectively, shall be represented by an equal number of representatives;"

And proposed, as an amendment, the omission of the word "equal." He made that proposition because he conceived the enactment to be highly unjust. They were taking on themselves to legislate for both these provinces; whereas they well knew that it was impossible for one of these provinces to express any opinion at all on the subject to which the bill related. Now, he did not think it was probable

objected to this arrangement, because it would now be unjust to Lower Canada, and at a future time it would work equal injustice to Upper Canada. It was, he conceived, particularly unjust to adopt such a rule of representation now, when the Lower Province was incapable of expressing any opinion on it. If the inhabitants of Lower Canada were afforded they would not agree to the proposition. such an opportunity, he was sure that

Viscount Melbourne was understood to say, that if the population of Upper Ca

nada hereafter increased in the manner to which the noble Lord alluded, it would be in the power of Parliament to revise the measure.

Lord Ellenborough said, that his views upon this point were borne out by the opinion of the Earl of Durham, who, in his report, stated

"I am adverse to every plan that has been proposed for giving an equal number of members to the two provinces in order to attain the temporary end of out-numbering the French, because I think the same object will be obtained without any violation of the principles of representation, and without any such appearance of injustice in the scheme as would set public opinion, both in England and America, strongly against it; and because,

union."

Amendment negatived.

English population in the Upper Province, the | laws against the Roman Catholics of Ireadoption of such a principle would operate to land. The object of the bill evidently defeat the very purpose it is intended to serve. It appears to me that any such electoral was to deprive, as far as possible by a learrangement, founded on the present provin- Canada of French origin-of any share at gislative enactment, the people of Lower cial divisions, would tend to defeat the purposes of union, and perpetuate the idea of dis- all in the Government of the united pro. vince. To that principle he entirely objected. It was not found to work advan tageously where it had been put in force, and it would be found not to operate advantageously now, because it was in itself unfair and unjust. If they distrusted the people of Lower Canada, why let them take steps to deprive them of all power at once; but if they felt confidence in that people, let them show by their proceedings that such was the fact, and let them so act as to inspire confidence on the other side. Even in private life, where

Lord Ellenborough said, he trusted that their Lordships would agree to the proposition which he was now about to make, which he considered to be just in itself, and perfectly reasonable. It offered, in his opinion the only prospect by which this measure was likely to be rendered advantageous to this country, and conducive to the prosperity and tranquillity of Canada. The proposition which he was about to make had reference to an alteration in the proposed system of represent-confidence was shown, it was almost uniation. Their Lordships had already determined that the members representing the upper and lower province should be equal for each province. Now, his object was to make such an arrangement as that the number of representatives for Lower Canada should be so distributed as to render it most satisfactory to the great majority of the population. The bill in this respect proceeded on a principle of which he greatly disapproved. Thus it proposed to give to Sherbrooke a member, while it excluded the town of William Henry, which was of more importance. Why was this? He could see no other reason for it except that the population of the former was in a great degree English, which was not the case with the latter. With the same feeling the bill proposed to give to a constituency of 2,300 persons the right of nominating a member, while it consolidated eight counties into four, and gave to each, the population amounting to 30,000 persons, the right of electing a single Member. This was done for the purpose of, as it was called, upholding the British interest. It was just as if, in case an alteration was proposed in the Reform Bill of this country, it was desired that the small county of Rutland should continue to send two Members to Parliament, because it happened at the time to return two Whigs, while the two divisions of Devonshire, were required to be consolidated, and to return only two Members, because they had previously sent two Conservatives to Parliament. The spirit in which this bill was conceived was

formly met by corresponding confidence. But if they took a middle course-if they adopted half measures-if they showed a distrustful spirit if they feared to go the whole length, but endeavoured by trick and chicanery to deprive these people of a just representation, they would ultimately find their efforts unsuccessful, and they deserved so to find them, because such a proceeding was contrary to the principles of good Government, and was inconsistent with the dictates of common sense. He proposed that, so far as it could be done, they should give such at representation to Lower Canada as would be satisfactory to the people of that country. In endeavouring to find a ground for such a representation, he would have recourse to the Act passed in 1829, which was acquiesced in by the Government of that time, and the amendments to which, proposed by the Legislative Assembly, were agreed to by the Legislative Council. He allowed great weight to the opinion of the noble and gallant Lord on the cross bench, and he was willing to adopt his suggestion on this point-as far as they could be adopted, consistently with other provisions of the bill. He was willing that every county now existing in Lower Canada should send one member to the Legislative Assembly. He wished to act with those people on a broad and liberal principle, and not to send them into the colonial parliament with angry recollections, and feelings hostile not only to the union of the two provinces, but to the connexion with this country. When the

Now

a member, he could not see why the town | its own legislature. That, he repeated, of William Henry, which was a large was an intelligible plan, and every one place, should be deprived of a similar who considered the condition of our North right, on the colourable pretext that it was necessary to support what was called the British interest. The bill gave two members to Quebec, two to Montreal, one to Three Rivers, and one to Sherbrooke. He wished to add four to these, raising the number of representatives for the Lower Province from 42 to 46. If that were acceded to, it would consequently be necessary, as the principle of equality of representatives for each province was determined on, to raise the number of representatives for Upper Canada also to 46. On that point he conceived the suggestion of the noble and gallant Lord on the cross-bench might be advantageously adopted. When this bill was introduced to the House of Commons by her Majesty's Ministers it contained a provision for district councillors. It was consistent with that provision that the number of the members of the Legislature should be diminished, but when that provision was struck out of the bill, the number of legislators was too few for the local government of that country. Let noble Lords recollect that all the parish roads and bridges, which by the bill were intended to be thrown on these district councils, would be cast upon the United Legislature. The United Legislature would also have to take into their consideration the propriety of altering, continuing, or renewing about 150 acts of Parliament, and it was utterly impossible, with the present number of Members, that they could get through so much business. He did not find fault with those who had thrown out those clauses, but in his opinion they might have received some modification, and he was convinced that under the present plan it would be impracticable to govern the united province. It had been said that this measure was founded on the plan of Lord Durham; but this was not the plan of Lord Durham, nor anything like it. Lord Durham's plan was, to unite all the provinces, and give a separate legislature to each separate province, for the purpose of local government. That was an intelligible plan. The business of the general legislature would have been principally business of a judicial character, affecting the whole union, and provincial matters affecting

American provinces would soon be brought
to doubt whether it might not ultimately
be necessary to adopt some such plan, at
least if it was intended to preserve those
provinces, because the great object which
we had to accomplish was to give the
colonists a feeling of nationality. Now,
we never should preserve those provinces
if we gave them a bad government, such
as they must have if we cast upon the
united Legislature the duty of legislating
about the minute details. Let their Lord-
ships consider what that Legislature was,
and of what it was to be composed. The
members who came from the two most
distant points of the province, united as
it was to be, would traverse a distance
equal to the distance between the Straits
of Calais and the Straits of Messina, and
in point of the time taken up in travelling
would be more distant from each other
than London was from Bombay.
that legislature, so composed, was to deal
with the question of every road and bridge
of the most trifling kind that could exist
throughout the whole of the intermediate
space, the greater part of which interme-
diate space being in a state which closely
resembled that of Britain in the time of
the Druids. He must say that he liked
the bill of the Government as it was
originally introduced, better than the mea-
sure as it now stood. He thought that
what the Government originally proposed,
subject to amendments, was practicable;
but the bill which their Lordships had be-
fore them was impracticable, and he
thought that nothing could justify us in
giving to the people of Canada a govern-
ment which must be bad. The Ministers
of the Crown had certainly succeeded in
getting a majority in the Legislature for
the people of British origin, but he bade
them beware lest that majority should
turn into a majority hostile to the con-
nexion with this country, owing in Lower
Canada to the manner in which we had
treated them, and in Upper Canada to
causes which it was not necessary for him
to specify. It was for these reasons that
he hoped that her Majesty's Ministers
would reconsider the state of the repre-
sentation, with the view of doing away
with, at the least, that additional cause of
discontent.

English population in the Upper Province, the laws against the Roman Catholies of Ireadoption of such a principle would operate to land. The object of the bill evidently defeat the very purpose it is intended to serve was to deprive, as far as possible by a le. It appears to me that any such electoral arrangement, founded on the present provin- gislative enactment, the people of Lower cial divisions, would tend to defeat the pur- Canada of French origin-of any share at poses of union, and perpetuate the idea of dis- all in the Goveroment of the united pro. union."

vince. To that principle he entirely obAmendment negatived.

jected. It was not found to work advan. Lord Ellenborough said, he trusted that tageously where it had been put in force, their Lordships would agree to the propo- and it would be found not to operate ad. sition which he was now about to make, vantageously now, because it was in itself which he considered to be just in itself, unfair and unjust. If they distrusted the and perfectly reasonable. It offered, in people of Lower Canada, why let them his opinion the only prospect by which take steps to deprive theru of all power at this measure was likely to be rendered ad- once ; but if they felt confidence in that vantageous to this country, and conducive people, let them show by their proceedings to the prosperity and tranquillity of that such was the fact, and let them so Canada. . The proposition which he was act as to inspire confidence on the about to make had reference to an alter- other side. Even in private life, where ation in the proposed system of represent confidence was shown, it was almost uni. ation. Their Lordships had already de- formly met by corresponding confidence. termined that the members representing But if they took a middle course --if they the upper and lower province should be adopted half measures--if they showed a equal for each province. Now, his object distrustful spirit -- if they feared to go was to make such an arrangement as ihat the whole length, but endeavoured by trick the number of representatives for Lower and chicanery to deprive these people of Canada should be so distributed as to a just representation, they would ults. render it most satisfactory to the great mately find their efforts unsuccessful, and majority of the population. The bill in they deserved so to find them, because this respect proceeded on a principle of such a proceeding was contrary to the which he greatly disapproved. Thus it principles of good Government, and was proposed to give to Sherbrooke a member, inconsistent with the dictates of common while it excluded the town of William sense. He proposed that, so far as it Henry, which was of more importance. could be done, they should give such a Why was this? He could see no other representation to Lower Canada as would reason for it except that the population be satisfactory to the people of that counof the former was in a great degree English, try. In endeavouring to find a ground which was not the case with the latter. With for such a representation, he would have the same feeling the bill proposed to give recourse to the Act passed in 1829, which to a constituency of 2,300 persons the was acquiesced in by the Government of right of nominating a member, while it that time, and the amendments to which, consolidated eight counties into four, and proposed by the Legislalive Assembly, gave to each, the population amounting were agreed to by the Legislative Council. to 30,000 persons, the right of electing a He allowed great weight to the opinion of single Member. This was done for the the noble and gallant Lord on the cross purpose of, as it was called, upholding the bench, and he was willing to adopt his British interest. It was just as il, in case suggestion on this point -as far as they an alteration was proposed in the Reform could be adopted, consistently with other Bill of this country, it was desired that provisions of the bill. He was willing the small county of Rutland should con that every county now existing in Lower tinue to send iwo Jiembers to Parlia Canada should send one member to the Inent, because it happened at the time to Legislative Assembly. He wished to act return iwo Whigs, while the two din with thuse people on a broad and liberal visions of Devonshire, were required to be principle, and not to send them into the consolidated, and to return only two colonial parliament with angry recollecMembers, because they had previously sent tons, and feelings hostile not only to the two Conservatives to Parliament. The union of the two provinces, bol to the spirit in which this bill was conceived was connexion with this country. When the