Sir J. Graham observed, that the matter of this bill ; and amongst them, the was of some interest, not merely as regarded Hand-in-Hand office subscribed 1001. tothe Nelson monument, but National wards carrying the object of the bill into Gallery also, which building remained an effect. From all parts of the country petieternal monument of the taste of the tions were poured in in favour of the meaHouse of Commons.

sure; and, certainly, it was no small reMotion agreed to.

commendation that it had passed the other House of Parliament without a dissentient

voice. To prove the sufferings :hat climbHOUSE OF LORDS, ing boys were compelled to endure, the Monday, July 6, 1840.

noble Marquess read extracts from evidence

given before a committee of the House of MINUTES.) Bills. Read a first time : -- Weaver Churches. Commons, appointed to inquire into this --Read a third time :- Admiralty Courts (Judges' Sa. lary) Bill.

subject ; and called their Lordships parti. Petitions presented. By the Earl of Haddington, from the cular attention to the sentiments delivered United Parishes of a District in Haddingtonshire

, in fa- by Lord Meadowbank, on a trial which vour of the Church of Scotland Benefices Bill.

recently took place in Edinburgh, when Damage of Settled Estates.] On that learned personage denounced the the motion of the Duke of Richmond, the practice of employing climbing boys as House went into Committee on the settled disgraceful to the country, and revolting Estates Drainage Bill.

to humanity, and emphatically called upon that it would be advisable to refer it to a to put down such an atrocious system. He that it would be advisable to refer it to a sincerely hoped, that their Lordships would

The Marquess of Salisbury suggested all who heard him to join in their efforts Select Committee.

not refuse their sanction to a measure in that the machinery of the bill would be favour of which so general, he might say, simplified. That machinery was at pre- the chief provisions of the bill prohibited

so universal a feeling, prevailed. One of sent extremely complicated; and the ex- the employment of any person under the pense that must be incurred under its provisions, was so great, that he feared the age of twenty-one years in the climbing of measure would not be attended with

chimneys. To this it was observed, that

any beneficial effect.

persons of such an age could not enter The Duke of Richmond said, the mea- chimneys unless they were peculiarly consure was calculated to bring into cultiva: structed. The answer

, however

, to that, tion large tracts of land, which, while un- was, and it was the answer of experienced drained, were useless. Still,' he should persons, that there were very few chimneys have no objection to refer it to a Select into which it would not be possible for Committee.

individuals of small dimensions, though of Bill referred to a Select Committee.

mature age, to enter ; and when the chim

ney did not admit of that, recourse must be CHIMNEY SWEEPERS—CLIMBING Boys.]

had to the machine. His noble Friend The Marquess of Normanby rose to move

opposite (the Earl of Haddington) had, on the second reading of the Chimney Sweep- certain master chimneysweepers, praying to

a former evening, presented a petition from ers Bill, which came before their Lord. ships very powerfully supported. It was if the prayer were acceded to, they would

be heard by counsel against the bill

. Now, not a favourite measure merely with some be required to hear counsel on the other one particular class, but the general feeling of the mass of the people was in favour of side, and there would be no chance of

He, therefore, must the measure. So strong was the feeling, carrying the bill. that he was convinced, if their Lordships object to such a course. passed this bill, they would give more

The Earl of Haddington was not an public satisfaction than by almost any other advocate for the employment of boys in measure. The last bill that passed on this this species of vocation. He admitted all subject was nearly inoperative, in conse- the evils that grew out of, and were conquence of the ease with which it was nected with it; and he wished as sincerely evaded. In favour of this bill all parties and as warmly as bis noble Friend opwere united; and its provisions were cal- posite to put an end to the system, if, at culated to meet the objections urged against the same time, he were well assured that former propositions. Every one of the security would accompany the abolition

Earl De Grey wished to state in a few words to their Lordships the reasons which induced him to oppose any inquiry. All the insurance-offices in London but one would not have adopted machinery, unless it had been satisfactorily proved that machinery could safely be applied? He had had a good deal of experience in the alteration of old, and the erection of new chimnies, and he was sure that there were not any chimnies which might not be so altered as to admit of being swept by machinery. He thought there was no necessity for further inquiry, and he gave his cordial and hearty support to the bill before the House.

Lordships should inquire, before they pro- | plainly shown that they might be easily ceeded further with this bill, whether they and safely swept by boys. might depend under the new system upon the same degree of security which they enjoyed under the old. The petition he had presented from the master chimneysweepers of London and Westminster against this bill, affirmed that there were very many chimnies that could not possibly be swept by machinery, and they prayed that this matter might be inquired into. He believed the master chimneysweepers were mistaken; but still it behoved their Lordships to inquire before they proceeded further. His noble Friend opposite said, that, if inquiry were allowed, the measure would probably be lost for this session. That would lead to great inconvenience, but the inconvenience would be still greater if they were to endanger the security of property, merely in order to pass the bill during the present session. Although, he apprehended that the bill must now be read a second time, he should propose that after the second reading it should be referred to a select committee.

The Bishop of Exeter must tender to the noble Marquess his most humble and hearty thanks for having stated, so ably the evils which attended the present system, and the necessity of putting an end to it. It seemed that there was not much difference of opinion, if any, on the subject of this bill, and he thought, therefore, that if a committee were agreed to, it need not take up much time in inquiry. He presumed that their Lordships would go into committee with their minds made up upon the misery engendered by the present system and the wickedness which it occasioned, which was greater than the amount of the misery. If these two points were taken to be admitted, the questions into which a committee of their Lordships would inquire would resolve themselves into this-whether the system of sweeping by machinery might be adopted with safety to life and property? He wished, however, that the committee would direct its attention to one point, which was of importance. In those flues which could not be swept by machinery, he apprehended it would be found that there was the greatest difficulty and danger when boys were employed. Now, he trusted that their Lordships would think that children should not be permitted to

Lord Segrave observed, that in many old houses it would be almost impossible to alter chimnies in such a manner as to render it practicable to dispense with the assistance of boys, and if this bill passed into a law, property in the country would be placed in a state of great danger.

The Bishop of London confessed that he would rather place old houses in jeopardy than the life of a fellow-creature. His reason for opposing a select committee was, that the misery and wickedness occasioned by the present system having been admitted, unless it could be proved that it would be impossible to make such alteration in chimnies that they could be swept by machinery, their Lordships would not be justified in prolonging a system which had already destroyed much human life, and so long as it continued would probably be the means of destroying much more.

The Earl of Wicklow believed that if this bill passed it would endanger a vast number of edifices in this country. He knew very well that those who lived in cities and towns where chimnies were built in the modern style would be secure under the operation of this bill, but the feeling in the country among the pos sessors of old habitations was decidedly against it. He was quite at a loss to know on what grounds an inquiry could be resisted. Not only had their Lordships no information at present, but when a similar bill came up from the other House six years ago a committee of inquiry was appointed, and the result of the inquiry was the conviction of the committee that the bill could not then

hardship with which these poor children were treated, that surely might be made the subject of regulation.

The Duke of Beaufort felt the difficulty of taking a course which was apparently opposed to the dictates of humanity, but at the same time he could not but think that if this bill were now to pass into a law, it would be very injurious to property in the country. He held in his hand a petition signed by 3,000 inhabitants of Bristol, against the bill, and under these circumstances he should support the proposition of the noble Earl for a reference to a select committee.

The Duke of Sutherland said, that having several petitions to present on the subject, and as it was one on which he entertained a strong feeling, he would take the liberty of stating in a very few words the reasons why he thought this bill ought to pass, and why there was no necessity for a reference to a committee. He had the honour of being chairman of the select committee to which was referred the bill to which the noble Earl had adverted, and having heard all the evidence and the strongest arguments which the master chimney-sweepers could employ, they were so satisfied on the subject, that the only reason why the committee wished some delay should take place before legislation was, that public attention might be called to the subject. Having heard that many houses, of which he was the owner, could not be swept by machinery, he had had them all altered, and without much difficulty, so as to admit the machinery. The present was a horrible practice, and ought not to be tolerated in a Christian community.

The Marquess of Normanby was unwilling to oppose this motion, but the inquiry which their Lordships had formerly instituted into this subject had been so searching and so general, that he thought further inquiry unnecessary. Their Lordships divided: Contents 91; Not-contents 77; Majority 14. Select committee nominated.

MUNICIPAL

CORPORATIONS (IRELAND).] The Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill was recommitted. On the proposition that schedule A be agreed to,

Lord Wynford rose to move as an amendment that Dublin be struck out of schedule A, with the view of excepting that city altogether from the operation of the bill. If this schedule passed in its present state, that for which certain persons were so clamorous, viz., equal justice to Ireland, would not be done. Their Lordships, in passing the English Corporation Bill, had thought fit to exclude the city of London; and, upon the same principle, he would now call upon them to exclude Dublin from the operation of this bill. It was the opinion of many persons of authority that the corporation of Dublin ought to be left as it was; and the present hon. and learned Member for Dublin, when some years ago he was examined before a Committee of the other House, gave it as his opinion that no change was required. The corporation of Dublin was essentially different from other corporations_with which this bill proposed to deal. Funds to a very large amount had passed from one generation of freemen to another for specific persons; that property was the private property of the corporation, and had been handed down to the present freemen by their predecessors for Protestant purposes, and for Protestant purposes only, and the parties by whom this property was left would rather have allowed it to go into the hands of any party than of that into whose hands it would probably fall by this bill. If the corporation of Dublin were not excluded, the bill would tend to shake the foundation of all property. He had presented to their Lordships a petition signed by no less than 7,000 persons, strongly protesting against the principle of this bill, as it affected Dublin. No charge of mismanagement could be The Earl of Haddington moved that it brought against the corporation of Dublin.

The Marquess of Londonderry was of opinion, that if their Lordships altered this bill so as to exempt these climbing boys from work, they must bring in another bill to arrest the employment of children in all the other public works of the country. The measure was of great importance, and ought not to be adopted without inquiry.

The Duke of Richmond rose for the purpose of making a suggestion that, instead of reading this bill a second time, it should be sent back to the committee appointed under the standing orders, and that that committee report on it.

Bill read a second time.

Lordships should inquire, before they pro plainly shown that they might be easily ceeded further with this bill, whether they and safely swept by boys. might depend under the new system upon Earl De Grey wished to state in a few the same degree of security which they words to their Lordships the reasons enjoyed under the old. The perition be which induced him to oppose any inquiry. had presented from the master chimney. All the insurance offices in London but sweepers of London and Westminster one would not have adopted machinery, against this bill, affirmed that there were unless it had been satisfactorily proved very inany chimnies that could not pos that machinery could safely be applied ? sibly be swept by machinery, and they He had had a good deal of expenence prayed that this matter mighi be inquired in the alteration of old, and the erection into. He believed the master chimney of dew chimnies, and he was sure that sweepers were mistaken ; but still it be there were not any chimnies which might hoved their Lordships to inquire before not be so altered as to admit of being they proceeded further. His noble Friend swept by machinery. He thought there opposite said, that, if inquiry were allowed, was no necessity for further inquiry, and the measure would probably be lost for he gave his cordial and hearty support 10 this session. That would lead to great the bill before the House. inconvenience, but the inconvenience Lord Segrave observed, that in many would be still greater if they were lo old houses it would be almost impossible endanger the security of property, merely to alter chimnies in such a manner as to in order to pass the bill during the pre- render it practicable to dispense with the sent session. Although, he apprehended assistance of boys, and if this bill passed that the bill must now be read a second into a law, property in the country would time, he should propose that after the be placed in a state of great danger. second reading it should be referred to a The Bishop of London confessed that select commit:ee.

he would rather place old houses in jeoThe Bishop of Exeter must tender to pardy than the life of a fellow-creature. the noble Marquess his most humble and His reason for opposing a select commilice hearty thanks for having stated, so ably was, that the misery and wickedness occathe evils which attended the present sys- sioned by the present system having been tem, and the necessity of putting an end admitted, unless it could be proved that to it. It seemed that there was not much it would be impossible to make such alter. difference of opinion, if any, on the sub- ation in chimnies that they could be swept ject of this bill, and he thought, therefore, by machinery, their Lordships would not that is a committee were agreed to, it be justified in prolonging a system which need not take up much time in inquiry. had already destroyed much human life, He presumed that their Lordships would and so long as it continued would prob. go into committee with their minds made ably be the means of destroying inuch up upon the misery engendered by the more. present system and the wickedness which The Earl of Willoro believed that if it occasioned, which was greater than the this bill passed it would codanger a vast amount of the misery. If these two number of editices in this country. He points were taken to be admitted, the, knew very well that those who lived in questions into which a committee of their cities and lowas wbere chimnies were Lordships would inquire would resolve built in the modern style would be secure themselves into this -- whether the sys. under the operation of this bill, but the tem of sweeping by machinery might be feeling in the country among the pos. adopled with safely to life and property ? sessors of old habitations was decidedly He wished, however, that the committee against it. He was quite at a loss to would direct its attention to one point, kaow on what grounds an inquiry could which was of importance. To those toes be resisted. Not only had their Lordwhich could not be swept by machinery, ships no information at present, but when he apprehended it would be found that a similar bull came up from the other there was the greatest difficulty and dan. House six years ago a committee of in. ger when boys were employed. Now, he quiry was appointed, and the result of trusted that their Lordships would think the inquiry was the coaviction of the that children should not be permitted to committee that the bill could not thea

hardship with which these poor children The Marquess of Normanby was unwere treated, that surely might be made willing to oppose this motion, but the the subject of regulation.

inquiry which their Lordships had forThe Duke of Beaufort felt the difficulty merly instituted into this subject had been of taking a course which was apparently so searching and so general, that he opposed to the dictates of humanity, but thought further inquiry unnecessary. at the same time he could not but think Their Lordships divided : Contents 91; that if this bill were now to pass into a law, Not-contents 77; Majority 14. it would be very injurious to property in Select committee nominated. the country. He held in his hand a petition signed by 3,000 inhabitants of MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IreBristol, against the bill, and under these LAND).] The Municipal Corporations circumstances he should support the pro- (Ireland) Bill was recommitted. position of the noble Earl for a reference On the proposition that schedule A be 10 a select committee.

agreed to, The Duke of Sutherland said, that Lord Wynford rose to move as an having several petitions to present on the amendment that Dublin be struck out of subject, and as it was one on which he schedule A, with the view of excepting entertained a strong feeling, he would that city altogether from the operation of take the liberty of staring in a very few the bill. If this schedule passed in its words the reasons why he thought this present state, that for which certain perbill ought to pass, and why there was no sons were so clamorous, viz., equal justice necessity for a reference to a committee. to Ireland, would not be done. Their He had the honour of being chairman of Lordships, in passing the English Corpothe select committee to which was referred ration Bill, had thought fit to exclude ibe the bill to which the noble Earl had ad- city of London; and, upon the same prinverted, and having heard all the evidence ciple, he would now call upon them to exand the strongest arguments which the clude Dublin from the operation of this master chimney-sweepers could employ, bill. It was the opinion of many persons they were so satisfied on the subject, that of authority that the corporation of Dublin the only reason why the committee wished ought to be left as it was; and the present some delay should take place before legis. hon. and learned Member for Dublin, when lation was, that public attention might be some years ago he was examined before a called to the subject. Having heard that Committee of the other House, gave it as many houses, of which he was the owner, his opinion that no change was required. could not be swept by machinery, he had the corporation of Dublin was essentially had them all altered, and without much different from other corporations with difficulty, so as to admit the machinery, which this bill proposed to deal. Funds The present was a horrible practice, and to a very large amount had passed from oughi not to be tolerated in a Christian one generation of freemen to another for coinmunity.

specific persons; that property was the The Marquess of Londonderry was of private property of the corporation, and opinion, that if their Lordships altered had been handed down to the present this bill so as to exempt these climbing freemen by their predecessors for Protesboys from work, they must bring in an- tant purposes, and for Protestant purposes other bill to arrest the employment of only, and the parties by whom this prochildren in all the other public works of perty was left would rather have allowed the country. The measure was of great it to go into the hands of any party than importance, and ought not to be adopted of that into whose hands it would probably without inquiry.

fall by this bill. If the corporation of The Duke of Richmond rose for the Dublin were not excluded, the bill would purpose of making a suggestion that, in- tend to shake the foundation of all prostead of reading this bill a second time, perty. He had presented to their Lordships it should be sent back to the committee a petition signed by no less than 7,000 appointed under the standing orders, and persons, strongly protesting against the that that committee report on it.

principle of this bill, as it affected Dublin. Bill read a second time.

No charge of mismanagement could be The Earl of Haddington moved that it brought against the corporation of Dublin.