there such ample endowment for them in the higher stations in the Church as in England. If then they were to resort to a general taxation of the country, and not adopt this plan, when they compared the general income of the clergy here with the income of the clergy in other countries, it would become a topic, and an inflammatory topic, against the clergy, which might be used, perhaps, with very powerful effect. There were means for increasing the revenues of the Church, applicable to the spiritual instruction of the people within itself, which ought to be made available before they adopted such a scheme as that proposed by the hon. Baronet. There were two other things called in aid-there was the suggestion of several Bishops for donations and subscriptions for the building of churches. The subscriptions, he believed, in this metropolis, were sufficient for some forty or fifty churches; and there were means for endowing these churches. He did not consider that the voluntary system of modern times was inconsistent with the ancient mode of supplying the revenues of the Church. It was a mode which was adapted to present circumstances, and it was also the mode of the present day, to promote the success of other religions as well as the success of the Church. But in former times, when property was entirely confined to a few hands, when there was immense property belonging to the few, and the rest of the community was in wretched vassalry, then these great persons contributed out of their great means to the support of the Church. Now, however, there was a different state of society, and every person contributed sums, little in amount, but by which considerable funds were raised, and thus there had been an increase of a number of churches, and an augmentation in the amount of religious instruction. He thought, therefore, looking at all these different sources of revenue, that Church would stand better, and would have a better prospect of providing adequate spiritual instruction, if instead of pressing unduly on the means of others, and appearing to withholdis own wealth from the purposes of the general instruction of the people, it adopted some of the plans which had been under consideration. At all events, it was necessary to ascertain more correctly what the circumstances of the different districts and towns of the the country were. He did not think the hon. Member for Leeds had represented adequately the wants of the metropolis, nor did he (Lord J. Russell) think the circumstance of there being several churches. close to one another in the city, any answer to the complaints which had been made with respect to a distant parish like St. Pancras. It did require details and a practical inquiry into the wants that were felt on this subject, before any conclusion could be correctly come to. He did not think they were in that state at present; and without proceeding to that inquiry, they never could tell what sums could be raised out of the revenues of the Church, or how they were to be applied. The real motion was, whether they wou'd consent to a very large grant of public money, and whether they would address the Crown for that purpose, and to that motion, for the reasons he had stated, he was not able to give his assent. The House divided:-Ayes 149; Noes 168: Majority 17. List of the AYES. Acland, Sir T. D. Dungannon, Viscount Eastnor, Viscount Eaton, R. J. Egerton, Sir P. Egerton, W. T. Ellis, J. Estcourt, T. Forester, hon. G. Freshfield, J. W. Gladstone, W. E. Glynne, Sir S. R. Goring, H. D. Goulburn, rt, hon. H. Grimston, hon. E. H. Grimston, Viscount Harcourt, G. S. Hepburn, Sir T. B. Herbert, hon. S. Hodgson, F. Holmes, hon. W.A'C. Hope, hon. C. Hotham, Lord Houston, G. Childers, J. W. Ferguson, Sir R. A. Stanley, hon, E. J. NEW SOUTH WALES.] Lord John Russell moved for leave to bring in a bill for the future government of New South TELLERS. present Legislative Council which was | tion on many points connected with public appointed by the Crown, that there should opinion, as to the church question, in that be a council of thirty-six members; that part of the United Kingdom from which twenty-four of these members should be the petition emanated. The petitioners popularly elected, and that the other stated, "That it was in their opinion intwelve should be appointed as at present consistent with reason, and with the docby the authority of the Governor. He trines of Scripture, for human authority to proposed that the plan should continue mingle in matters of religion, and they for ten years, for as the colony increased conceived, that in the legislation of this in wealth and population, the colonists empire, that principle was violated by the would expect institutions similar to those establishment of a State Church" Now, of the North American possessions and on this point, with reference to an Esthe other colonies of Great Britain. He tablished Church, it was his m stortune proposed a franchise of 107. arising either entirely to differ from those, no doubt, from a house or a certain amount of pro-worthy and conscientious persons. The perty or land. The council would have petitioners then adverted to the baneful all the powers that at present belonged to effects produced by the bestowal of state the Government council. There was favour on the Church; and he begged also a proposal that the sales of land leave to call their Lordships' especial atshould take place only by authority of the tention to the following important stateCrown, and that the management of those ment of the petitioners, namely:lands should rest entirely with the Crown. He would not then enter into the various provisions of the bill. As the colony was increasing in wealth and population, the present plan of transportation would be finally discontinued; and in a short time from the increasing number of emigrants, it would lose the character of a penal settlement. It was not, however, proposed to extend this measure to Van Diemen's Land. Leave given. MINUTES.] HOUSE OF LORDS, Bills. Read a first time :-Arms (Ireland); Advances Amendment.-Read a second time:-Timber Westminster, the Earl of Harewood, and several other noble Lords, from Cambridge, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Manchester, Westminster, and several other places, in favour of the Chimney Sweepers' Bill.-By the Earl of Haddington, from Master Chimney Sweepers of the Metropolis, to be heard by Counsel against the Chimney Sweepers' Bill. CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.] Lord Brougham rose to present a petition agreed to at a public meeting of the inhabitants of Edinburgh and its neighbourhood, which had been publicly convened, and which was signed as one account said, by 19,000 persons, and, as another stated, by upwards of 16,000 persons. He called their Lordships' serious attention (and particularly the attention of the noble Marquess (Breadalbane) behind "That this truth (as the petitioners called it) is at the present moment receiving paintul, but instructive illustration, from the state of the Church of Scotland, which exhibits the inconsistency of rights being claimed inherently as their own by bodies salaried and supported by of the land, as it has been promulgated by the the State, and in active opposition to the law supreme and only competent authority. The petitioners cannot sympathize with them in their present conflict, because no church is entitled to lay claim to independence, while it actually depends on the State for its support; and because what these parties ask falls far short of what they would be entitled to demand if they were not thus connected with the State. The petitioners then pray, that your Lordships will refuse all applications for grants of public money for Church Extension, and that you will take all proper measures for the separation of Church and State." Their Lordships were aware that he differed from these petitioners with respect to their fundamental position against the establishment of the Church of Scotland, which, if conceded, would have the effect of putting an end to all Church Establishments; but he thought that no person could read the statement of the petitioners, and be informed of the number who attended the meeting, and the great zeal and unanimity by which their proceedings were distinguished, without being convinced, that their cry against Church Establishments, and their desire for the separation of Church and State, had been mainly promoted and increased by the late proceedings of the ecclesiastical authorities in that part of the country. Hughes, W. B. Pigot, R. Fleetwood, Sir P. 1. Ponsonby, C. F. A.C. Hurt, F. Polhill, F. Gillon, W. D. Ponsonby, hon, J. Ingestrie, Viscount Pollen, Sir J. W. Gordon, R. Protheroe, E. Jackson, Sergeant Pringle, A. Greenaway, C. Rawdon, Colonel James, Sir W.c. Pusey, P. Greg, R. H. Redington, T.N. Jermyn, Earl Rae, rt, hon. Sir W. Grey, rt. ho. Sir G. Roche, E. B. Rumbold, C.E. Hastie, A. Rundle, j. Knatchball, right hon. Round, J. Hawes, B. Russell, Lord J. Sir E. Rushbrooke, Colonel Hawkins, J. H. Rutherfurd, rt.hn. A. Lefroy, rt, bon. T. Rushout, G. Hayter, W. G. Salwey, Colonel Scrope, G. P. Seymour, Lord Sheil, right hon. R. L. Long, W. Shirley, E. J. Hindley, C. Shelburne, Earl of Lowther, hon. Col. Sibthorp, Colonel Hobhouse, T. B. Slaney, R. A. Lowther, J. H. Smith, A. Hodges, T. L. Smith, J. A Lygon, hon. General Smyth, Sir G. H. Hollond, R. Smith, B. Mackenzie, T. Stanley, E. Horsman, E. Smith, G. R. Mackenzie, W.F. Stanley, Lord Hoskins, K. Smith, R. V. Mackinnon, W.A. Sturt, H. C. Howard, ho. E. G. G. Somers, J.P. Mahon, Viscount Teignmouth, Lord Howard, P. H. Stanley, M. Manners, Lord C. S. Thesiger, F. Hume, J. ley, hon. W.0. Martin, T. B. Thornhill, G. Hutt, w. field, W. R. C. Marton, G. Vere, Sir C. B. Hutton, R. on, Sir G. T. Maunsell, T. P. Vernon, G. U. James, W. R. Miles, P. W. S. Villiers, Lord Jervis, s. W. V. Labouchere, rt, ho. ways, hon. J. Morgan, C. M. R. Welby, G. E. Langdale, hon. C. and, Sir G. Neeld, J. Williams, R. Langton, W.G. O'Neill, hon. J. B. R. Wodehouse, E. Leader, J. T. Sir C. G. R. M. ter, E. C. Parker, M. Yorke, bon. E. T. 2, H. W Parker, R.T. Young, J. ulay, rt, hn. T ly. T. Parker, T. A. W. TELLERS. ache, F Patten, J. W. Inglis, Sir R. H. all, w. H. Peel, rt, hon. Sir R. Knight, G. nd, H. hon. F. N. hon P. SL Visc Curne, R. O Dashwood, G, H. O Ord Osw Page Park Patti Peche Penda Philips Ellice, E. Busheld, W. Erwall, R. Byng, G. Evans, w. NEW Russell for the fe Wales. Clay, w. Fioch, F. present Legislative Council which was tion on many points connected with public appointed by the Crown, that there should opinion, as to the church question, in that be a council of thirty-six members ; that part of the United Kingdom from which twenty-four of these members should be the petition emanated. The petitioners popularly elected, and that the other stated, “That it was in their opinion intwelve should be appointed as at present consistent with reason, and with the docby the authority of the Governor. He trines of Scripture, for human authority to proposed that the plan should continue mingle in matters of religion, and they for ten years, for as the colony increased conceived, that in the legislation of this in wealth and population, the colonists empire, that principle was violated by the would expect institutions similar to those establishment of a State Church" Now, of the North American possessions and on this point, with reference 10 an Esthe other colonies of Great Britain. He tablished Church, it was his m slortune proposed a franchise of 101. arising either entirely to differ from those, no doubt, from a house or a certain amount of pro-worthy and conscientious persons. The perty or land. The council would have peritioners then adverted to the baneful all the powers that at present belonged to effects produced by the bestowal of sale the Government council. There was favour on the Church; and he begged also a proposal that the sales of land leave to call their Lordships' especial atshould iake place only by authority of the tention to the following important state. Crown, and that the management of those ment of the petitioners, namely:lands should rest entirely with the Crown. “That this truth (as the petitioners called He would then enter into the various pro- it) is at the present moment receiving paintul, visions bill. As the colony was but instructive illustration, from the state of the increas ealth and population, the Church of Scotland, which exhibits the incon. preset transportation would be sistency of rights being claimed inherently as finally ued; and in a short time their own by bodies salaried and supported by from sing number of emigrants, the State, and in active opposition to the law it w of the land, as it has been promulgated by the the character of a penal supreme and only competent authority. "The settl was not, however, pro- petitioners cannot sympathize with ihem in posc nd this measure to Van their present conflict, because no church is enDie titled to lay claim to independence, while it actually depends on the State for its support; and because what these parties ask falls far short of what they would be entitled to demand SE OF LORDS, if they were not thus connected with the State. The petitioners then pray, that your Lordships day, July 2, 1840. will refuse all applications for grants of public money for Church Extension, and that you will Read a first time :--Arms (Treiand); take all proper measures for the separation of ment.-Read a second time:- Timber hird time: -Vagrants Removal. Church and State.” By Lord Prudhoe, the Marquess of • Earl of Harewood, and several other fered from these petitioners with respect Their Lordships were aware that he diffrom Cambridge, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, estminster, and several other places, in to their fundamental position against the Chimney Sweepers' Bill.-By the Earl of establish of the Church of Scotland, m Master Chimney Sweepers of the Meheard by Counsel against the Chimney ceded, would have the effect an end to all Church Establish. but he thought that no person OF SCOTLAND.] read the statement of the petitioners, se to present be informed of the number who atpublic me ded the meeting, and the great zeal and unanimity by which their proceedings were distinguished, without being conne vinced, that their cry against Church , as Establishments, and their desire for the 00 per separation of Church and State, had been serious mainly promoted and increased by the attention late proceedings of the ecclesiastical auDane) behind thorities in that part of the country. |