noble lord might make. They had formed an opinion upon which they had acted -if the noble lord had any alteration to propose, they were ready to listen to it, and to give it every fair consideration; to undertake more would be undertaking a great deal too much. The noble lord had agreed to the principle of the Bill, and had declared he would vote for the second reading-after this, for all further discussion, be apprehended the committee would be the proper place, and he should accordingly reserve what he had further to urge on the measure till that opportunity was afforded him. Sir J. C. Hippisley rose under a loud cry of Question, and great interruptions, and was obliged, after waiting some time, to sit down. Mr. Ryder then rose, but after waiting some time, was also obliged to sit down. Mr. Bathurst then rose, and moved that the House do now adjourn. The Speaker having, with difficulty, obtained a hearing, stated the question. Lord Castlereagh said, that his right hon. friend had, he was confident, only moved the adjournment, in order to obtain a hearing for such gentlemen as wished to deliver their sentiments; and having obtained that object, he had no doubt he would immediately withdraw it. Mr. Bathurst rose and said, that after the House had listened somewhat more than two hours to the noble lord, who had gone into details which had no connection with the question then before them, he certainly did hope they would hear his hon. friend, whose intention it was to speak to the question. Mr. Ryder then rose, and asked if it were the wish of those who brought for ward the measure that it should pass, in such a way as to give general satisfaction, would it, at all contribute to that desirable end, that those persons who did not entertain the same sentiments with the friends of the Bill, should not obtain a patient hearing? As he had before given his opinion upon the subject, he would not now take up the time of the House with stating over again the grounds upon which that opinion had been formed; but he could not help calling their attention to the Bill as it appeared before them. He was not to be considered as one of that class alluded to in the course of the debate, who did not consider the laws affecting the Catholics as an evil. He looked upon them to be a very great evil, but an evil, however, which he could not consent to remove without some security, and the difference between him, and the supporters of the Bill was, that he thought no securities could be devised; and every other individual, except the author of the Bill, thought that securities were necessary. (No, no, from the opposite side.) He understood gentlemen to say, that securities were necessary, and that a Bill should be introduced to discover what securities could be devised. If such were the case, he must remind the House of the situation in which they stood with respect to the Bill. When leave was given to the tight hon. gentleman to bring in his Bill, it was the general sense of the House that some securities should be provided, and they were willing that a Bill should be brought in to discover whether any thing could be devised that would justify the removal of all the disabilities now affecting the Roman Catholics. But if they looked at the clauses of the Bill they would see that while it removed every disqualification no additional securities were provided. The Corporation and Test Act were to be annulled; Catholics were to be admitted into parliament and corporate magistracies; and all that was devised as a security was an oath merely made up of two other oaths as enacted by the statute of 1791 and the Irish Act of 1793. This, however, was no additional security; and yet, thus stood the Bill which they were now called upon to support. Perhaps it might not be exactly fair to connect in his view of the question the clauses proposed by his right hon. friend (Canning) and yet there could be little doubt, he apprehended, that the House, in coming to a vote, would have in its contemplation, those clauses so connected. He did not mean to go into them at any length, but, with respect to one of them, he would say thus much, that he would rather hazard all the dangers of direct foreign influence as it now existed, than sanction that clause which professed to obviate it. He could not conceive a more monstrous proposition. He could see nothing more mischievous than such a commission as that which his right hon. friend (Mr. Canning) proposed; a commission, it was true, to be appointed by the crown, but neither removable by the crown nor responsible for its conduct. Even if the commission were to consist of Protestants, he would have nearly the same objection to it. Such a species of imperium in im perio he had never before heard of in the British constitution; and whether it was to consist of Protestant peers or Protestant commoners, he should equally oppose it. No sufficient securities had been yet proposed, or seemed likely to be devised, after the great abilities that had been so long employed ineffectually for the purpose of discovering them. ber, and where there were distinct interests, without feeling alarmed at the consequences of such unlimited concession. They could not close their eyes to the fact, that differences of religion existed there for a long time, and that they were now going to try the experiment whether these religions could be placed on the same footing. His noble friend had talked of proMr. Peel said, that notwithstanding the viding for the clergy of the Roman Cathoimpatience of the House at that late hour, lic church; but, if they were maintained he trusted that, considering the situation at the expence of the state, how could the which he had the honour to hold in the Protestant be called the established religovernment of Ireland he should be in- gion? What was an established religion? dulged for a few minutes, while he stated If he understood what it meant, it signified his sentiments upon this most important a religion, the teachers and professors of question. He should rather have wished which possessed certain privileges, and to reserve himself entirely for a more fit were maintained by the state. If then the occasion when the Bill went into a com- Catholic clergy were maintained by the mittee; but he was, he confessed, very state, (and under other circumstances, unwilling to let this Bill pass the second such a measure would be desirable) in reading without entering his protest what would the Protestant establishagainst it. He protested against the prin- ment consist, as contradistinguished from ciple of this Bill, because it conferred on the Catholic. The only difference bethose who admitted an external jurisdic- tween the two religions in Ireland would tion, the right of legislating on all matters then be, that a Roman Catholic could not connected with the church of England; be lord lieutenant. It should be recolhe protested against this Bill, because it lected, that Ireland had a distinct hierwas not conformable to the Resolution of archy, that she had the same number of the House, on which it professed to be archbishops and bishops that there were in founded; that resolution did certainly this country, and that she had 2,000 adopt the principle of concession to the clergy; now, if by this Bill the two reliCatholics, but it was concession connected gions were equalized in Ireland, would not with the strongest and most distinct secu- parliament soon be called to put the prorities for the established church. He fessors of both on the same footing? wished to ask, where were these securities? When parliament had declared, that there The House, he should think, would not be was no reason why one religion should satisfied with the promise of a member, have any preference over the other, however respectable, that some clauses, was it to be supposed that the Catholics which were printed and circulated, should of Ireland would consent willingly to be hereafter added to the Bill, when they maintain the clergy of a religion not proought to have these important securities fessed by more than one-fifth of the inhaembodied and distinctly brought before tants of that country: how could they them as a separate and at least co-equal hope, when it was admitted that there subject for consideration. Upon a ques- were 4,000,000 of Catholics and only tion of such vital importance, the securities 800,000 Protestants, to maintain the Proought to accompany the Bill itself. The tant ascendancy? This was a point which, principal ground, however, of his objection he thought, they ought well to consider. to the Bill was, as it affected the connec- He would not detain the House much tion of the country with Ireland. One of longer at this late hour, but was anxious the great difficulties which appeared to to vindicate himself from the charge of inhim to stand in the way of the proposed consistency, which had been preferred by concession was the state of the population a right hon. gentleman (Mr. Canning) of Ireland. If the Protestants exceeded against those who opposed this Bill, bethe Roman Catholics in number-if the cause, though they disapproved of the population of the two countries were mixed principle of this measure, they had yet up together, he should have much less ob- voted for the proposition of the hon. bajection. But it was impossible to look at ronet (sir J. Hippisley). It was true, that the situation of Ireland, where the Roman last session he opposed the motion of the Catholics so greatly preponderated in num-right hon. gentleman (Mr. Canning); the question then was, whether the House should resist the claims of the Catholics, or go into enquiry for the purpose of concession. The House adopted the motion, and after this there was surely no impropriety in trying to render the Bill as little obnoxious as possible, although they might fail in preventing its adoption. When, therefore, he, and those who thought with him, were driven from their strong hold, there was no inconsistency in their taking the next strongest that offered. Though they might have preferred resistance to enquiry, yet they might prefer enquiry to concession. He might differ with the hon. baronet as to the extent of enquiry which he wished to institute, but he thought the ground upon which he voted perfectly consistent with his vote of last session. That motion was not brought forward with the concurrence, or at the desire of the persons at that side of the House.-If it were their intention to oppose the Bill, they might have adopted another course. With regard to the Bill, it was in his mind premature. He did not think it could lead to final or conciliatory adjustment. It would have been a more decent mode of treating the numerous petitions laid upon the table, if such enquiry as the hon. baronet moved for had been made. He was the more inclined to object to this measure, because, even if it were passed, its professed object would not be obtained, for many grievances would still remain behind. There was nothing said in this Bill about the laws in existence respecting bequests of Roman Catholics for their schools and places of worship, nothing about the education of the Catholics. It was then absurd to represent this Bill as calculated to effect a final adjustment, because there were many laws existing upon our statute books, which must be repealed if this Bill should pass. He concluded with stating, that he would not trespass longer upon the House at that time, but that he would, at some future stage of the Bill, either in the committee or on bringing up the report, take the opportunity of stating his senti. ments more at large. Mr. Wilberforce observed, that no person, however long his experience in that House, could have devised a better way of getting rid of a question, than the motion of the right hon. baronet (Sir J. C. Hippisley,) and that nothing could be more opposite to the feelings of the House. He then made a few observations in reply to some parts of lord Castlereagh's speech. He thought the obscurity in which the noble lord had enveloped his opinions respecting some alterations or amendments, was placing those who concurred in the general principle of the Bill in a very distressing situation, and he hoped the noble lord would, if not in that House, yet in some other way, intimate what his view of the amendment was, that the House might understand what he wished. In voting for the second reading, he had no doubt the House would do so, with a pointed view of the Bill as brought in by the right hon. gentleman, and in connection with the clauses proposed by his right hon. friend (Mr. Canning). Lord Castlereagh said, he was sorry that he had not made himself fully understood. He had been willing to assist in his private character in forwarding the measure, but he had not been called on; he felt no more difficulty in doing so now than he had before; he only wished that the amendment, which he thought necessary, might be brought forward by the friends of the measure, as it would be better received. He by no means intended to complain that he was not consulted on the formation of the Bill. It was natural to expect that those would be anxious to frame it according to their own distinct notions who had been more forward in promoting the general object. Sir J. C. Hippisley very shortly adverted to some unparliamentary and unjust expressions made use of by the hon. gentleman' who spoke last but one, and who had charged him with endeavouring to fritter away the Bill, and to compromise the rights of the Catholics. The hon. baronet was entering upon other topics, when he was interrupted by an almost universal cry of" question!" General Mathew admitted that the language used by the late member for Yorkshire might be severe, but it was not unjust; he would repeat, that the hon. baronet had endeavoured, by every means within his power, under colour of friendship to the cause, to destroy the Bill, and to frustrate the well-grounded hopes of the Catholics. Mr. Canning said he rose merely to apologise for not addressing the House in re ply to some of the observations of the noble lord, but the remarks he had to make would more properly be stated in a future stage of the Bill. He was fully convinced, from the conduct of the noble lord, that he was a sincere, he might even say an ardent friend, to the measure before the House, for conducting the war with additional vigour and effect, should the enemy refuse a fair proposal for peace; with advantages so unexpected and so unhoped for, in consequence of the events of the last cam although differences might exist upon particular points. Of the noble lord's powerful assistance he should always be happy to avail himself; and he was perfectly ready, in or out of the House, to confer with the noble lord, and to compare their mutualpaign, ministers should experience no opinions upon this important subject; difficulties, no embarrassments, in followwhere the noble lord was wrong, he was ing up that line of conduct so obviously convinced no difficulty would be found in called for by circumstances; that they conceding the point, and where he (Mr. should have an opportunity of proceeding C.) was in error, he would be ever happy unfettered to negociation. But a period to acknowledge his mistake, and to adopt was now arrived at which he could no the better ideas of the noble lord. Some longer refrain from adverting to rumours remarks that fell from the noble lord re- which he had heard, and which were urged specting the Veto, he did not comprehend, with no inconsiderable degree of confi. but speaking generally, he should think it dence. He wished for no discussion of right to exact from the Catholics every the subject at present; but to state that if thing not absolutely inconsistent with the one of these rumours with respect to intenets of their religion: while, however, ducements held out to a power whose aswe professed to tolerate it, we must not sistance was sought for was in any degree wound it in the most vital part. With re- founded, he must say it was one of the gard to a provision for the Roman Catho- most iniquitous as well as the most injulic clergy, he was not so fully convinced rious propositions he ever heard of, espe of its expediency as to justify him in ori- cially with a view to the consideration of ginating and introducing any measure to future arrangements; in which light he that effect; and he thought that if such must regard it as one of the most injurious provision were necessary, the proposa! propositions to the best interests of this would much more fitly come from the country. That was not all; he understood noble lord, as a member of his Majesty's there appeared in a paper before the other government. He sat down, re-assuring House, an account of the distribution of the House of the cordiality and sincerity the last vote of credit; the advancement of the profession, that he should be at all of a considerable sum on the part of this times happy to unite with the noble lord country to Sweden. He need not state to in a mutual endeavour to render this Bill their lordships that parliament had a right as perfect as possible. to know for what purpose that money was so advanced. In former discussions on this subject, it was held, that unless particular circumstances could be pleaded, ministers were not justified in making such advances. It was incontrovertibly true, at least, that parliament should be informed of the purpose of such advances. These were points on which he thought ministers were called upon to afford information to parliament; and that it behoved them to take care not to commit the faith and honour of the country with such propositions, previously to parliament being informed upon the subject, respecting which it was also his wish to know if ministers shortly meant to make any regular communication. The question was then loudly called for by all sides of the House. A division took place. The numbers were, For reading the Bill a second time on this day three months, 203; Against it, 245; Majority, 42.-The Bill was read a second time and committed for to-morrow. HOUSE OF LORDS. Friday, May 14. STATE OF OUR FOREIGN RELATIONS.] Earl Grey said, before their lordships proceeded to the order of the day, he would endeavour to obtain some information from ministers upon points respecting which it was important and necessary the House should sooner or later obtain information. He had purposely abstained from making any inquiries respecting the measures of government, particularly with regard to their foreign connections, because his anxious wish was, that, under circumstances evidently so advantageous, either for a favourable negociation for peace, or The Earl of Liverpool assured the noble earl and the House, that nothing could give his Majesty's ministers greater satisfaction, than to be able consistently with their decided sense of public duty, to afford the desired explanation, or to state to parliament the principles upon which their advice to his royal highness the Prince after the number of speeches which their lordships had heard, signalizing the successes of our arms, that he offered himself under disadvantageous circumstances, in finding himself compelled, from a sense of his public duty, to call their lordships' attention to our naval disasters. He had Regent was founded, in consequence of the events of the last campaign. He believed, however, the noble lord was aware that any discussion upon the subject could not be adequately entered on, without a full discloure of all its bearings and connections; which must evidently tend to embarrass the measures about to be adopt-wished, that this discussion should have ed. In that view of the question, he should feel that he was not acting consistently with his public duty, if he made any answer to the particular questions of the noble earl at present, or entered into any further explanations. But he hoped the day was not far distant, when he should have an opportunity of stating, what the general state of the relations of the country were with respect to foreign powers, and the nature of the engagements subsisting with those powers. The noble earl knew there was a particular period of the session when such topics regularly came under consideration, and he did hope that until the arrival of that period, no explanation of the kind would be required. On that occasion they would be afforded; or if that should not be the case, sufficient grounds should be stated for the farther withholding them. Earl Grey spoke in explanation, and observed, that the period to which the noble earl alluded appeared to be that when the vote of credit generally came to be proposed towards the end of a session. He was anxious, however, before the faith and honour of the country should be irrevocably committed to any engagement of the nature of that to which he alluded, that the House should be afforded an opportunity of judging of it upon its merits. At present he must state that he was by no means satisfied with the answer given. Some particular information should be given by ministers respecting rumours of such a nature. He had waited anxiously till the very opening of the campaign-a period when all the resources of the country ought to be applied to their proper objects; to know the principles, and the objects for which those resources were to be applied. One thing he thought clearly appeared, that ministers, though favoured by such a combination of circumstances, had not as yet made any attempt at negociation for a peace, or any adequate effort for a vigorous prosecution of hostilities. NAVAL ADMINISTRATION.] The order of the day being read, The Earl of Darnley said, he was aware, been brought forward when these disastrous events were fresh in the recollection of their lordships and of the public. That it was not so, was certainly not to be attributed to their lordships: he had postponed the motion in consequence of the inability of a noble marquis to attend, for the assistance of whose abilities upon this important question he was most anxious. Unfortunately, however, that noble marquis was still prevented from attending, by severe indisposition. It might have been hoped, that in the interval between his giving his notice and the bringing forward his motion, some naval triumph would have occurred, to compensate, in some measure, for the disasters that had unhappily befallen our arms: it could scarcely have been believed possible that any fresh disaster would have happened in addition to those already so severely felt. Yet in the course of the two months that had intervened, another misfortune, there was too much reason to fear, had occurred, attended with even more melancholy circumstances than the former disasters. He alluded to the action between his Majesty's sloop of war Peacock, and the United States' brig Hornet, of equal force. No official account of this unfortunate occurrence having arrived, he was willing to cling to the hope that it was unfounded; but the statement that had been given of the circumstances of the action in the American papers, left too much reason to fear that it was true. Under these circumstances, he had to claim that indulgence of their lordships, whilst he entered into a detail, which he felt the importance of the subject demanded. Whether the unfortunate war in which we were involved with the United States of Ame. rica might have been avoided by conciliatory measures on our part, or by adopting a different line of policy to that pursued by his Majesty's government, he would not now discuss, although he thought that had his royal highness the Prince Regent, at the time of assuming the regency, been advised to take to his councils other persons than those ministers who had been em ployed, this war with America might have |