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MR M'CULLOCH'S IRISH EVIDENCE.

THERE are many most unaccountable things done in these days, and the examining of Mr M'Culloch by the Parliamentary Committee for inquiring into the state of Ireland was one of them. Mr M'Culloch has no personal knowledge of Ireland; he was not called to state facts respecting it; he merely appeared as a Political Economist to edify the Committee with general doctrines. He is a public lec turer on Political Economy, and the rage for this fashionable science being, as we suspect, strong upon the sagacious legislators, they resolved to obtain a lecture at an economical rate, under the name of evidence on the state of Ireland. If our conjecture be just, they displayed in this far more cunning than generosity; but, however, certain money-market disclosures show that thrift is now the order of the day even among gentlemen and nobles. It may be very proper for great people to be immoderately fond of great bargains, but we think it is not very proper for them to use Parliament as their instrument. We do not like to see Parliamentary Committees using their privileges to enable them to slake their glorious thirst for knowledge and science," and especially for economical science" at a cheap rate, to the grievous loss of poor Mr M'Culloch.

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We may be mistaken. Perhaps the philosopher was brought forward by the absentee landlords to throw dust in the eyes of the nation, when the misery and depravity of their tenants were coming before it. Perhaps these individuals found a storm gathering around them, which could only be quelled by the bewildering dogmas of Political Economy. But whatever was the cause, Mr M'Culloch, who is not a man of business-who is neither an Irish landlord, nor an Irish farmer, nor an Irishman of any kind, who actually never saw Ireland, appeared before the Committee to dilate on the condition of the sister kingdom.

In looking over Mr M'Culloch's evidence, one thing causes us prodigious amazement; this is-on some of the most important points, he repeats precisely the same opinions, which we had, on more occasions than one, published in this Magazine, touching Ireland, before he appeared before the

Committee. In proof, we may refer to what he says respecting subsetting, emigration on a large scale, the associating of the landlords, &c. It certainly is exceedingly odd, that any Economist, after what we have said of the tribe, should come after us to do anything but contradict us. We say not this from vanity, for the same opinions, for anything that we know to the contrary, may have been published ten thousand times before we published them. We wrote from our own observations, but it by no means follows that we wrote what was new. We mention the matter, because in some quarters we see it asserted that government is preparing a bill which is to embody Mr M'Culloch's principles touching sub-letting; we see his views touching emigration puffed most extravagantly as exclusively his own; we see it very broadly insinuated that the opinions contained in the only sound part of his evidence were utterly unknown until he condescended to lay them before Parliament. This will not do; if we set up no claim to originality ourselves, we certainly must not permit any such claim to be set up by Mr M'Culloch.

The sage Economist, however, differs very widely from us in many things, and, where he does this, we naturally imagine that he blunders excessively. His opinions on some points are, we are pretty sure, perfectly original; but, unhappily for him, these are not the opinions which are so hugely lauded by people in general. When he has ventured to think for himself, he has produced in the public a vast portion of laughter, and very little belief. Some of his opinions, which are peculiarly his own, or at any rate, which are not ours, we shall now examine. We are led to do this by the great importance of the general question, and a wish to protect our former papers on Ireland from misapprehension. We will begin with his doctrines touching absenteeism. Something may still be added to the refutation which these have already received from various quarters.

The following we extract from his evidence :

"Supposing the absentee landlords of Ireland were to return and reside upon

their estates, is it your opinion that that would be productive of any decided advantage to the lower orders of the people?-No, I am not aware that it would be productive of any decided advantage to them, in the way of increasing the general and average rate of wages all over the country.

"Would not the expenditure of their incomes amongst them, be productive of a great deal of good?-The income of a landlord, when he is an absentee, is really as much expended in Ireland, as if he were living in it.

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I Will you have the goodness to explain that a little further?-When a landlord becomes an absentee, his rent must be remitted to him one way or another; it must be remitted to him either in money or in commodities. I suppose it will be conceded, that it cannot continue to be remitted to him from Ireland in money, there being no money to make the remittance, for if the rents of two or three estates were remitted in money, it would make a scarcity of money and raise its value, so that its remittance would inevitably cease: it is clear, then, that the rents of absentees can only be remitted in commodities. And this, I think, would be the nature of the operation; when a landlord has an estate in Ireland, and goes to live in London or Paris, his agent gets his rent, and goes and buys a bill of exchange with it; now this bill of exchange is a draft drawn against equivalent commodities that are to be exported from Ireland; it is nothing more than an order to receive an equivalent amount in commodities which must be sent from Ireland. The merchants who get L.10,000 or any other sum, from the agent of an absentee landlord, go into the Irish market, and buy exactly the same amount of commodities as the landlord would have bought, had he been at home; the only difference being, that the landlord would eat them and wear them in London or Paris, and not in Dublin, or in his house in Ireland.

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Therefore, in proportion to the amount of rent remitted, will be the correspondent export of Irish commodities? -Precisely; if the remittances to absentee landlords amount to three millions a-year, were the absentee landlords to return home to Ireland, the foreign trade of Ireland would be diminished to that amount.

"Would not there be a local effect created by the residence of Irish gentry now absent, that would be very beneficial?-If the question be confined to particular spots, the expenditure of considerable sums of money in them may perhaps be productive of some advantage to

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their inhabitants; but when a landlord goes abroad, the expenditure of his income, though not probably productive of advantage to that particular parish, or that particular part of the country where his estate lies, will certainly be proportionally advantageous to some other part of the country, inasmuch as the income must all be laid out, in the first instance, on Irish commodities.

"The employment of the people is a great object; would not the residence of the gentry contribute to the employment of the people-If you lay out your revenue in labour, you cannot lay it out on commodities; if you get L.10,000, and lay out L.5000 in labour, you can of course lay out L.5000 in commodities.

"Would it not be much better for the peasantry of Ireland, that a large proportion of revenue should be laid out in employing them, than in the purchase of commodities in the city of Dublin, many of which, perhaps, may have been of foreign produce?-If it is laid out in commodities, it will give employment to the persons engaged in the production of them.

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"Would not the population of the country be benefited by the expenditure among them of a certain portion of the rent which has been remitted?—No; I do not see how it could be benefited in the least. If you have a certain value laid out against fresh commodities in the one case, you will have a certain value laid out against them in the other. cattle are either exported to England, or they stay at home; if they are exported, the landlord will obtain an equivalent for them in English commodities; if they are not, he will receive an equivalent for them in Irish commodities; so that in both cases the landlord lives on the cattle, or on the value of the cattle; and whether he lives in Ireland or England, there is obviously just the very same amount of commodities for the people of Ireland to subsist upon; for by the supposition which is made, the raising of cattle is the most advantageous mode in which the farmers rents. can pay their

"Would it result from the principles laid down by you, that confining the question to those considerations which have been adverted to, it would be the same thing, in point of fact, to Ireland, whether the whole gentry of the country were absentees or not, as far as those considerations go?-I think very nearly the same thing. If I may be allowed to explain, I will state one point in which I think there would be a small difference. I think, so far as regards the purchase of all sorts of labour, except that of a mere

menial servants, absentee expenditure is never injurious to a country. The only injury, as it appears to me, that a country can ever sustain with reference to wealth from absentee expenditure, is that there may be a few menial servants thrown out of employment when landlords leave the country, unless they take their servants along with them; but to whatever extent menials may be out of employment, if they have the effect to reduce the rate of wages, they will increase the rate of profit. In a country, however, where absenteeism has been so long prevalent as in Ireland, I should say that this circumstance cannot have any perceptible effect.

"When an agent wishes to remit, suppose L.1000 of Irish rent to a landlord not resident in the country, and buys a bill of exchange in Dublin, has not that bill of exchange been actually sold, and does it not actually represent at the time a previous exportation of Irish produce? It may not represent a previous exportation of Irish produce; but it will either represent a previous or a subsequent exportation.

"Then in every instance, in which a demand arises for a bill of exchange to remit rents, it is, in point of fact, a demand for exportation of Irish produce, that would not otherwise have existed? Undoubtedly.

"A value being remitted equivalent to the rent, will not that value find its way through the various operations of occasioning production by the employment of the poor to the extent that the landlord himself could employ them if he remained at home? I think so.

"Will you have the kindness to state what your view of absenteeism is, as a great moral and political question, as applicable to Ireland? From all the information I have been able to obtain from reading books on the state of Ireland, and conversing with such Irish gentlemen as I have met with, I should think that in a moral point of view, Ireland did not lose very much by the want of the absentee landlords.

"Will you state what has led you to form that opinion? The statements that I have seen in Mr Wakefield's work, and in other works on Ireland; and the various conversations I have had.

"The Committee are now speaking, not of the state of Ireland as it is, but what it would be, if the persons of property had in that country been resident for generations, as in more fortunate countries has been the case; have not those circumstances which lead you to form this opinion, arisen a good deal from VOL. XIX.

the state of society which has resulted in a great measure from the absence of the higher class of proprietors? I should certainly think that the chances were, that if the large proprietors had lived at home, and not let their estates, on interminable leases for small quit rents, that the country would have been improved by their residence; but I found this opinion on political grounds, and not on those about wealth.

"Have not the circumstances to which you have alluded, as marking the character of society, which induces you to think that the residence of an Irish gentleman amongst his tenantry is not likely to be attended by any good moral effect, in a great degree resulted from the state of society which has been formed in consequence of the absence of the real proprietors of the soil? It may have in some small degree resulted from that, but the actual state of society in Ireland has, I think resulted much more from other

causes.

"What are those other causes? I should think it had resulted more from political causes than anything else. The great proprietors of the soil of Ireland have been Protestants, and have been embued with all the prejudices of the Protestantsect against the great majority of the people who live upon their estates, and in fact against the great majority of the people of the country; and having those prejudices, I think Ireland has not, upon the whole, lost a great deal by their non-residence.

"What class of proprietors do you believe has in general usurped or occupied the places of those who would have been the natural chiefs of society? I think Lord Clare states in his speech on the Union, (I forget the precise words,) that a very large proportion of Ireland, about five-sixths of the country, had been confiscated in the course of the century ending with the reign of William the Third, and, of course, if that confiscation had not taken place, the great bulk of the property would have been in the hands of the descendants of those whose estates were confiscated. Had the majority of the landlords been Catholics, I should think they would have treated their tenants and the lower people better than Protestant landlords could be supposed to do.

"In looking to the causes of the prosperity of countries, in what degree has, what is generally called the landed interest, contributed to it? It would be very difficult to answer that question with precision; I think, however, that almost all great improvements in every country,

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have originated among merchants and manufacturers.

"In respect to capital, and the influence of capital in extending industry and employing the people, and making that profit which leads to the general wealth of a country, what would you say has been the usual process by which countries have changed from a state of poverty to a state of wealth and civilization? I should say that the history of Europe proves that the progress of countries in wealth and civilization, has been more promoted by the accumulation of capital made by manufacturers and merchants, and by their skill and enterprise, than by the same qualities on the part of the landlords.

"Adverting to what you stated some time ago, supposing that capital was to be drawn from England and advantageously employed in Ireland in manufactures, would it not result from the answer you have just given, that it would contribute greatly to the improvement of Ireland? If it can be advantageously employed in Ireland, it will go there without any legislative measures being necessary to force it; and if not, it had better remain out of it.

"Is not absenteeism the cause of the middlemen system? I do not think it is absenteeism that is the cause of it; I think it originated in the difficulty of finding tenants possessed of capital sufficient for the working of large tracts of lands, and the disinclination which every gentleman must have to go and supervise the proceedings of a parcel of small occupiers. I have no idea you would diminish the number of middlemen materially, though you had no absentees.

"Would it be possible for an absentee to deal, directly or individually, with his tenantry, if he had not the means afforded him of letting large tracts to one person, that was responsible to him? He might deal with them through the intervention of an agent. If he does not choose to employ a middleman, he can employ an agent; and it is only because he finds that middlemen are more advantageous than agents, that he resorts to them in preference.

"Are there complaints in Scotland about absentee landlords? No; I never heard of any such complaints.

"Are there many absentee landlords from Scotland? A great many.

"Do those farms, where there are absentees, bring a lower or a higher rent, than where the landlords are resident? I believe that throughout Scotland, a farm belonging to an absentee landlord, of the same goodness as one belonging

to a resident landlord, would let for rather a higher rent.

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What reason is there for its bearing a higher rent than if the landlord was resident? No tenant likes to live under that system of surveillance and overlooking which is generally exercised by a landlord. When a landlord goes abroad, or lives in England, his affairs are managed by his factor or agent, who is generally a very intelligent person, and much more conversant with country affairs than the landlords are; so that the tenants prefer dealing with him to dealing with the landlord.

"That depends on the character of the factor, and would not apply to a country where the tenant preferred dealing with the landlord? If the landlord were to employ a very bad man as his factor, of course the tenant would prefer a resident landlord to deal with, if he were a better man; but in Scotland I believe I am warranted in saying, that, generally speaking, they uniformly prefer absentee landlords.

"Do you conceive England sustains any injury from the number of absentees in France? No, I do not; England would have them to feed and clothe were they in England; and whether she feeds or clothes them in England or France, is a matter of perfect indifference to England.

"Do you think, that if seven-eighths of the landed proprietors of England were to go abroad, leaving their estates in the hands of agents to manage them, the general concerns of this country would go on as well as they do now? I think, if there were courts established in England like the sheriff courts of Scotland, and if the agents or persons selected to manage the estates of absentees, were men of as good character, and as intelligent as those who manage the estates of Scotch absentees, England would rather gain by the absence of the great proportion of the landed proprie

tors.

"Have you turned your attention to the public expenditure of Ireland, and can you state whether the revenue collected in Ireland is sufficient to defray the expense of governing that country? I understand the revenue collected in Ireland is nearly three millions short of defraying the expense of governing that country, and paying the interest on that portion of the national debt of the empire which properly belongs to Ireland."

Our readers will have observed, in the first place, that in Mr M'Culloch's opinion the absentee landlords would not, by dwelling in Ireland, raise wa

ges in it, or in other words, would not employ more labour in it than they employ at present; and that these landlords, in reality, spend their rents as much in Ireland when they are absentees, as they would do if they should dwell in it constantly. The Philosopher makes no distinction between a landlord's living in England, and his living in France, or China. Whether he dwell in London, or Paris, or Rome, or Pekin, or Timbuctoo, it is precisely the same to Ireland as dwelling on his Irish estate, in regard to the expenditure of his income. Had this opinion been delivered by some venerable female whose faculties had been impaired by a warfare of eighty years with the ills of life, it would doubtlessly have excited only peals of laughter; but it was delivered by an Economist by a Philosopher-and therefore we are pretty sure that it was listened to with wonderful so. lemnity, and believed to be vastly profound and unerring.

The sagacious Economist's reason for his opinion is in substance, that the landlord's rent is in reality paid in Irish produce, and that it makes no difference to Ireland whether this produce be consumed in it, or out of it. The landlord, for example, receives his rent in oxen; he exchanges these for such commodities as he needs, and it makes no difference whether he makes the exchange in Ireland, or in any other part of the universe.

Our readers are aware that the rent, whether the landlord dwells in Ireland or out of it, is paid by the tenants in money; these sell their oxen exactly the same in both cases to pay it. If the landlord dwell in Ireland, what does he do with the money? He expends it in commodities, says the Philosopher. In what commodities? In coals-wine-malt liquor-cottons -woollens-silks-sugar-tea-coffee, &c. &c. If the commodities which he consumes be produced in Ireland, they must employ a large quantity of labour in their production: if they be all imported, they must employ a large quantity in, and after their importation, putting production out of sight. Sailors have to be employed in fetching them; labourers have to be employed in unloading the vessels; bargemen and waggoners have to be employed in

carrying the goods to different parts; shopmen, apprentices, porters, &c. have to be employed in distributing them. If the landlord did not live in Ireland, none of the foreign commodities consumed by him would enter it, and the mass of labour which these put in motion would be unemployed in that country.

In addition, the landlord pays annually considerable sums to the coachmaker, harness-maker, bricklayer, carpenter, blacksmith, tailor, shoemaker, painter, upholsterer, &c. &c. the greater part of which sums, is in reality paid for labour. Were he to live out of Ireland, this labour would be in that country without employ

ment.

This is not all. If the landlord hy his consumption of commodities give regular employment to one hundred people in Ireland, who would otherwise be idle; these employ various people to prepare commodities for them who would otherwise be idle; the latter in their turn employ others who would otherwise be idle; and the money thus continually circulates, employing additional labour everywhere. If the landlord should remove from Ireland, not only would the labour which his consumption of commodities employs be left idle, but a vast portion of other labour would be left idle likewise.

We will illustrate this farther by looking at rents in the gross. Those paid to absentee landlords are represented to be enormous in amount, but suppose they reach three millions. If this sum were expended in Ireland, it would employ a vast number of grocers, drapers, mercers, tailors, shoemakers, &c. &c., who could not now find business in that country. These tradesmen would employ a vast number of servants of different kinds, who could not at present be employed in Ireland. These masters and servants would of themselves employ an immense mass of labour, which, without them, could not be employed.

We leave domestics and labourers, regularly hired by the landlord, out of the question, in order to meet the Philosopher on his own ground.

Now, how does Mr M'Culloch get over this point? He says, "If you lay out your revenue in labour, you cannot lay it out in commodities;

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