come to somewhat the same scale which they had observed in their grants to other branches of the royal family, in similar situations. In regard to personal considerations applying to his royal highness, but one tone had pervaded the whole debate. No member had suggested any thing which could detract from the general opinion which had been expressed in his favour; all seemed to be agreed, that, so far as regarded personal character, it was impossible to indicate two more deserving and excellent persons than the duke and duchess of Clarence. One word, before he sat down, the general distress of the country. He acknowledged it-he deplored it-and he did hope that, in the course of the session, they would do all in their power to remedy it. But he differed again from his hon. friends, as to what would be the feeling of the country upon this vote. He was convinced that the mass of the people would acknowledge the justice of this grant, even those among them who were in the most lamentable condition. He was sure that when it came before them as a question, whether it was proper to vote an additional 9,0001. a year to the heir presumptive, or to adopt the course recommended by his hon. and learned friends, there was not a man among them who would think the hardship of his own situation aggravated by the passing of such a vote. In point of fact, he thought there was not a man in the empire who would not readily concur in this grant; but if, unfortunately, the distresses of the people should so far pervert their understandings, as to make them indisposed to concur in it, he, for his own part, should feel that he could not do less than support the vote proposed by the right hon. gentleman. Mr. Fergusson said, he had not the honour of being known to many members of that House, but he believed, that such hon. gentlemen as did know him, would admit that he was the last person who would be likely to court favour or propitiate power, by giving his acquiescence to any measure that he did not think himself conscientiously bound to support. He felt himself, therefore, bound to declare, that he must vote for the present grant, because he was convinced that the situation of his royal highness was materially changed, and that he could no longer remain in his present state of retirement. The simple question was, whether they would leave the immediate heir of the Throne in a situation not even so affluent as some of the nobility, or whether they would enable him to answer the demands which must be made upon him in the condition to which he had been elevated? He was convinced that they ought not to leave his royal highness so; and he was equally convinced, that the vote he was about to give would not prove an unpopular one. It was a public measure, for the support of a public object. Mr. John Martin said, that the two hon. members who had last addressed the House, appeared to be quite certain that instead of this being an unpopular motion, it would meet with the unqualified approbation of the country. Now, if this were really the case, he should propose that his majesty should send another Letter to the bishops, and direct them to endeavour to raise this 9,000l. by voluntary subscription, in the same manner as the relief for the distressed manufacturers had been procured. For his part he did not see the popularity or the propriety of the grant, and must, therefore, give it his decided negative. Mr. George Robinson, although he usually voted with ministers, yet felt himself bound, under the present circumstances of the country, to give his negaIt was not, tive to the proposed grant. in his opinion, one of those exigencies which called upon them to make such a sacrifice; and without entrenching in any manner upon the respect due to the royal family, he thought the House ought not to impose any additional burthen upon the people. Mr. Hume said, that several hon. members had asked why he had not negatived the grant, instead of proposing that the discussion of it should be put off. He had adopted the latter course, because he had hoped that if ministers had time for consideration they would withdraw their proposition, and that to have negatived the grant would have appeared something like a reproach to the Crown. The hon. member was proceeding to make some further observations, when he was interrupted by loud cries of "Question." Upon which the House divided-For Mr. Hume's Amendment 65. Against it 167. Majority for the Grant 102. List of the Minority. Monck, J. B. Morpeth, visc. Ord, W. Brougham, H. Marshall, W. Brougham, J. Ponsonby, hon. W. S. Poyntz, W. S. Protheroe, Ed. Ramsden, J. C. Robinson, G. Robarts, A. Rumbold, C. Sebright, sir J. S. Sefton, earl of Sharp, R. Smith, W. Stewart, J. (Beverley) Stuart, Villiers Sykes, D. Thomson, C. Tufton, hon. H. Waithman, Ald. Warburton, H. Western, C. C. Wilbraham, G. Wilson, sir R. Winnington, sir T. Wood, J. (Preston) Wood, J. (Grimsby) Wrottesley, sir J. TELLER. Althorp, visc. EXPENDITURE AND INCOME OF THE COUNTRY.] On the order of the day for going into a Committee of Supply on the Ordnance Estimates, Mr. Maberly rose to oppose the Speaker's leaving the chair. He was, he said, induced to do so, principally for the same reason that he had stated on a former evening, when the Navy Estimates were brought before the House; namely, an unwillingness to concur in voting any Estimates, until the House should be put in possession of what were the probable resources of the country, from which these Estimates were to be supplied. The receipts and expenditure should be laid before the House, and an opportunity should be afforded of comparing them with the amount of the estimated receipts and expenditure contained in the statements of the chancellor of the Exchequer. If this amount was laid before the House, he apprehended there would be found a great defalcation, from the expectation of reduced expenditure, which the right hon. gentleman had, from time to time, held out to the House and the country. With a view of ascertaining what comparison the real expenditure and income of 1826 bore to the estimated one of the chancellor of the Exchequer, he had moved for an account of the nett public income in the year ended the 5th of January, 1827, after abating the expenditure thereout, defrayed by the several revenue departments, and of the actual issues or payments within the same period, exclusive of the sums applicable to the redemption of funded property. From that account, which had been since printed, he observed a very great falling off from the prospect formerly held out to the country by the chancellor of the Exchequer. He regretted to say, that there was so great a defalcation as from 3,000,000l., to 4,000,0007. The House would bear in mind, that it was provided that there should be a sinking fund of 5,000,000l. of unredeemed funded debt, which, together with interest on redeemed debt, the money in the hands of the Bank of England to pay off 5 per cents, gave an amount applied to the redemption of the funded debt, of 5,621,2317. Now, in the account laid before the House, the following was the amount of the income and expenditure:Nett income paid into the Exchequer.. £54,894,989 10 3 Nett expenditure.. 53,885,541 53,885,541 2 22 Surplus of income over expenditure 1,009,448 8 04 Now, although this was very much below the standard of comparison which, from the statements of the chancellor of the Exchequer, the House might expect the expenditure to bear to the income; yet, what he was desirous of calling the attention of the House to, was, that in this account the sinking fund was not at all considered. There was, it was true, a balance of 1,009,4481. of income over expenditure; but, so far was this sum from being a real surplus of income over expenditure, that it must go towards the further sum of 3 or 4,000,000l. which was requisite to make up the charge of the sinking fund; which, as he had before estimated, was put down in a balance sheet at 5,621,2317.-The next point that presented itself to his attention, was the contribution towards funding 8,000,0007. of Exchequer bills, and the money raised in the year, ended Jan. 5, 1827, by the creation of unfunded debt. And this, it should be borne in mind, was created after the House had come to a resolution to diminish the unfunded debt of the country. A wiser measure could not be adopted than to abolish it altogether. He would now proceed to compare the state-J for miscellaneous receipts, but he had forment which the right hon. gentleman gotten a payment of 1,500,000l. which made to the House in March, 1826, with made a further deficiency of 600,0007. the real results of the state of the revenue; [The chancellor of the Exchequer said and the House will perceive how far that "No."] The general result of this was, statement was from being realized. He that there was last year a surplus of would do so, for the purpose of guarding 5,500,000l. and this year it amounted to the House from being misled in future, no more than 1,000,000l. Therefore he by any sounding promise which might considered, that the deficiency, which the be held out to them; and to guard, public had to make up, was better than against any lavish expenditure in the 4,000,000l. because the sinking fund had Estimates, which they might be now to be supplied. The right hon. gentleman called upon to vote. On the occasion to might say, that an answer would be given which he referred, the right hon. gentle- to this objection; but that confirmed him man stated in his place in that House, in his opinion, that the estimates ought that the whole sum to be received, during to be laid before the House before the the present year, would be 57,043,000l. votes were applied for. A great deal was If from this sum be deducted the expen- said about the distress which prevailed, diture, amounting to 56,328,4217. there and he felt for the deplorable extent to would remain to be dealt with a clear sur- which that distress had reached; but he plus of 714,5791. This surplus the right felt no less, that, whatever might be the hon. gentleman seemed to think the House distress, the state of foreign affairs, and would have to dispose of in whatever the protection of the great interests of the manner it might please; but, so far from country, were such as to require that the there being such a surplus, notwithstand- necessary estimates should pass. Dising the appearance of a surplus of claiming, therefore, any intention of op1,009,4487., there was, on the face of posing the motions for such grants, he the accounts themselves, a defalcation of contended, that it was the duty of memthree or four millions. He had already bers to watch them in every stage, and shown, how an erroneous impression might not to treat them as all questions of be taken from a statement of the printed finance were generally treated in that account to which he had referred, by the House; where, as soon as any gentleman omission in that account altogether of the got up to speak on such subjects, four sinking fund, and by its being transferred fifths of the members went out. He came to a balance-sheet on the back of the ac- down to the House for the purpose of count. He would proceed to remark looking cautiously and vigilantly at the upon a further variance in the printed financial arrangements, taking into conaccount now laid before the House, and sideration existing circumstances and the the items of charge as originally estimated state of the finances. At this moment, more in the statement of the chancellor of the than any other, the discharge of this duty Exchequer. In the statement made by was absolutely necessary. Before these the chancellor of the Exchequer, and in votes passed the House, they should have the charges in the printed account, a con- the accounts of the past and of the presiderable increase was to be found in the sent year laid before them, as far as that latter under the following heads of ex- was possible. That was the usage in all pense :other countries. The people ought to have it in their power to judge of the expediency of the expenditure, and of their For the Interest and manageability to meet it. The right hon. genment of the Public Debt. £27,117,186 tleman ought to inform the House what The Army 7,747,000 he meant to do with this annuity or halfNavy.. 6,135,000 pay. In April, 1828, the dead-weight Expenditure according to the Printed Ac- annuity, which had been contracted for with the Bank of England, would be at an end. The House would have to come Expenditure from the Chancellor's State .... ment. count. For the Interest and Manage ment of the Public Debt. £27,245,750 to a determination as to what they meant The Army.. 8,297,360 to do with this annuity. It would not be 6,540,634 creditable to send it forth to the public, Navy... The right hon. gentleman had taken credit and it must either be put in the shape of sinking fund, or be declared a deficiency. I measures which his majesty's government If the exchanges should go against Eng- had thought it necessary to take for mainland, the Bank must have an act of par- taining the honour and dignity of the liament to suspend their payment, while country, it certainly did appear extraso large an unfunded debt remained. It ordinary to require from them a premawas impossible that they could sell this ture exposition of the means by which dead weight, and it was frightful to con- those measures were to be carried into template the consequences which must effect. It ought to be taken for granted ensue, if even only one million of it should that government were prepared to meet be offered for sale. It was because he the exigency. It was miserable weakness took this view of the subject, and because to suppose that this country was not perhe thought that members paid too little fectly ready to answer any demand upon attention to a subject of deep and univer- her of the nature to which he alluded. sal interest, that he had been induced to Whatever might be the expense of the late come forward. He did not mean to say armament, the country was perfectly capathat there was any great objection to the ble of bearing it, without incurring any of Ordnance estimates, which were about to that pressure and difficulty which the hon. come on for discussion, but the Army es- gentleman seemed to anticipate. Even if timates were to follow, and then would it were not so, he was persuaded that there come the Miscellaneous and Colonial es- would be a general disposition to make timates, from which perhaps some deduc- whatever sacrifices might be required on tions might be made. He did not wish the occasion. Although it was not his to quarrel with any of them, and he was intention at present to enter into any sure that no one would think he had done minute explanation of the state of our wrong in making this statement in order finances, there were some points in the to obtain information which it was neces- hon. gentleman's statement on which he sary the House should be possessed of to would make a few remarks. The hon. enable it to deal properly with the ques-member had taken a very imperfect view tions which were to be brought forward. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, it was impossible for him to answer all the points upon which the hon. member had touched, because he could not give the House satisfactory information upon them, without stating at full length those particulars which he proposed to submit at no distant period. He had no hesitation in saying, that he was not now in a situation to state, with the requisite accuracy, what he conceived to be the condition of the revenue for the present year. Since he had had the honour of filling the situation in which he was now placed he had endeavoured to bring forward the financial state of the country at as early a period of the session as possible. He hoped shortly to bring it forward; but, at present, he owned he was not in a situation to do so. When he should bring it forward, he hoped to furnish a full and satisfactory explanation upon all the matters referred to by the hon. gentleman. But because he was not at that moment prepared to enter into the extensive subject, was that, he would ask, a fair reason, why a shilling should not be voted for the support of a single sailor, a single soldier, or a single artillery-man? After the House had voted their approbation of the VOL. XVI. of the subject. Certainly, on the face of the balance-paper, instead of there being a surplus for the year to the amount of four or five millions, which he had flattered himself there would have been, the surplus was little more than one million. There could be no doubt that that was the case; and he very much regretted it. But, when the various circumstances which must influence the amount of the national revenue and expenditure were considered, it could not be supposed that it was possible to realize, in every individual year, the expectations which, at the commencement of that year, might be very justifiably entertained. If, however, the hon. gentleman was warranted in arguing as he had done on the defalcation of the present year, he too, was undoubtedly entitled to ask the House to recollect what had been the state of the balance-sheet in preceding years. In 1823, he had anticipated a surplus of only 5,000,000l. The result, however, was, that the surplus was no less than 6,700,000l.; so that in that year the surplus had outgone his anticipation of it by 1,700,000l. In the next year, 1824, he had stated, that it was reasonable to expect that the surplus would be the same that he had anticipated in the year preceding; but it exceeded that amount by 1,400,0007, T In the year 1825, the surplus exceeded his anticipation by 160,000l. So that, in the three years, the actual surplus of the revenue over the expenditure had exceeded his estimate of it by upwards of 3,000,0007. The fair thing was, to take a view of all the years together. That, indeed, was the course which he originally asked the House and the country to pursue. In 1824 he had submitted to parliament the policy and expediency of viewing the probable circumstances of the country through a series of years. Looking at the question in that point of view; regarding the series of years during which he had had the honour to hold his present situation; he thought it would not be considered that the anticipations which he had ventured to make with respect to the finances of the country justly deserved to be called excessive. Thus taking all the years, the deficiency of four millions and a half in the present year, on which the hon. member had dwelt, must be reduced by the three millions of surplus in the antecedent years. Let the House read the balance-sheets of all the years, and they would find that, deducting the surplus of three millions in former years from the deficiency of four millions and a half in the present, the actual deficiency in the series of years was only one million and a half instead of four millions and a half, -There was another point to which the hon. member had adverted, on which he wished to say a few words. In these balance-sheets certain sums were introduced which necessarily appeared to belong to the expenditure; but which were only advances made by government in pursuance of acts of parliament, and which advances would, of course, be eventually repaid. If the hon. member for Abingdon would go through the items of this description with all the accuracy which it was well known he possessed; if he examined both sides of the account for the last four years, and compared the sums which had been thus advanced by government with the sums which had been repaid, he would find that, instead of the surplus having been only three millions, it had been considerably more, and that, even taking the last year into the calculation, there had been no deficiency at all. This was a fact, which he should be perfectly ready to prove, whenever the proper opportunity should arrive for that purpose. He would even at the present moment notice a few of the items. One was the advance by government of the sum of 240,000l. for the purchase of the Leith Docks, with the dues arising from them; a great and beneficial national object. The greater part, if not the whole of this sum, would be eventually repaid. Now, that could not, in the strict sense of the word, be called an expense; because the sum which had been advanced bore an interest, and because the principal would revert to the country. The duke of Athol's annuity was the next item of this description which he would notice. It was well known that the family of the duke of Athol had ancient claims on the revenue of the Isle of Man. In the year 1805, an act of parliament passed, by which a pension was granted to the duke of Athol for a surrender of a part of these claims; he retained a portion of the duties paid in the island. Subsequently the duties paid in the island were considerably increased. The duke of Athol, however, was not entitled to any share of the increased rate of duty. But this was felt to be an exceedingly inconvenient state of things. He did not know that it occasioned any inconvenience to his grace, but to the Treasury it was the source of much embarrassment and difficulty; and it was thought desirable to simplify matters, by purchasing from the duke of Athol the right which he claimed to a certain part of the revenue of the island. The duke naturally felt indisposed to part with his right, except upon terms commensurate with its value. An act of parliament was passed, enabling the lords of the Treasury to come to an agreement with his grace. Referees were appointed. The referee on the part of the Crown was a man of the highest character, once a distinguished member of that House, and now holding an important official situation in the other House of parliament; he meant Mr. William Courtenay, whose honourable character and habits of business rendered him an excellent choice on the part of the Treasury. The referees met, and minutely discussed the subject; and, after various elaborate calculations, determined that 150,000l. was the value of the annuity which the duke of Athol derived from the duties of the Isle of Man. This occurred last year. It was, however, impossible for him to know at the commencement of the session, whether the referees would be able to agree in the course of the year; or, if they did, on what sum they would |