internal affairs of other countries. I trust we know the limits of our duty too well. It is our duty to take care that the frontiers of Portugal shall not be crossed by an offensive army; but it is not our duty to give one faction, or party, an ascendancy over the rest. The force which we maintain at Lisbon, therefore, is maintained, not with any view of interfering in the internal affairs of Portugal; not with any view of intimidating any party in Portugal; but simply with a view to prevent such acts of foreign hostility as, in their consequences, might involve Europe in the horrors of war. It is on that ground, Sir, that I take our conduct towards Portugal as an illustration of the wisdom and necessity of maintaining certain establishments; and I challenge the hon. and learned gentleman, who desires us to cut down all our establishments, to put his hand at this moment on any of our establishments as unnecessary, which I will not shew that there are the seeds of safety; in which I will not shew that there are the roots of a well-ordered, a well-regulated, and a permanent economy. That is the sense in which the Speech from the Throne adverts to possible exigències of the public service. There is no intention, under that name, to shelter any of those extravagant propositions, the probability of which the hon. and learned gentleman appears to con in cent splendor of the Crown, and the comfort of the people, will never be considered incompatible objects: the dignity of high stations will not be regarded with an envious eye; nor will one class of the community find any consolation for their own evils in pulling down another. Not apprehending that any such disposition exists in any part of the public, I can assure the hon. and learned gentleman, that it is not the intention of his Majesty's government to carry economy to such an extent, as to induce that public to turn round and charge us with going into an extreme. The hon. and learned gentleman is dissatisfied with the declaration in the Speech, that "the Estimates shall be formed with as much attention to economy as the exigencies of the public service will permit." Does the hon. and learned gentleman suppose that there are no exigencies in the public service? Has this country no station to maintain? Is nothing required from us towards the maintenance of tranquillity in Europe? May we not, at a moderate charge, prevent the occurrence of an evil which, in a single twelvemonth, would plunge us into an expense, greater than an ill-judged economy would balance in a course of years? His Majesty says in his Speech, that he "is exerting himself with unremitting anxiety, either singly, or in conjunction with his Allies, as well to arrest the progress of existing hostilities, as to prevent the in-template. There is no part of the policy terruption of peace in different parts of now pursued by his Majesty's government, the world." Does the hon. and learned dependent on the establishments of the gentleman believe, that, in order to effect country, which I am not ready to go this object, it is not necessary to maintain through, point by point, and show its real considerable establishments? If we look efficacy and ultimate economy; and that, at the new world. Are there not contests Sir, as I conceive, is the only possible going on which humanity requires should answer which I can give to the conjectures be put an end to? In Europe have we of the hon. and learned gentleman.—With not an ally whose condition solicits our regard to the condition of Ireland, I shall aid; an ally in such a situation, that any only observe, that the absence of any topic hesitation or fluctuation of policy, on our in the Speech from the Throne does not part, might invite an attack upon her? at all preclude parliament from entertainMay not our presence on the spot preventing the consideration of that topic, if it an aggression on the power to which I allude? Is not the English fleet now in the Tagus, an obviously wise and economical expense? Will it not be advisable to continue that expense, if it is calculated to prevent an explosion, the consequences of which no one can foresee? Do not let it be supposed, by my adopting this illustration of the necessity of a certain establishment, that it is the policy of his Majesty's government to meddle with the should think fit so to do. The Speech states those points alone, respecting which it is intended by his Majesty's government to call on parliament to adopt some proceeding. It is not our intention at present to bring before parliament any specific measure respecting Ireland; but that will not prevent any individual member from agitating the subject. I will not, however, be tempted, by what has fallen from the hon. and learned gentleman, to say another dress would read the Speech from the Throne, in February 1822, he would find in it an unequivocal recommendation to parliament to relieve the burthens of the people; and the result would show the hon. member, that he need not entertain any fears that economy and retrenchment would be carried to too great length; for by referring to the estimates, the hon. gentleman would find, that they had gone on increasing in amount from that time to the present moment. Notwithstanding the Address of the House in 1821, calling on the Crown to effect every possible reduction of expenditure; notwithstanding the answer to that Address promising relief; notwithstanding the Speech of 1822, the army, navy and ordnance estimates of the present period exceeded by 1,700,000l. the estimates of the period to which he alluded. As to the necessity of maintaining establishments, with a view to watch the conduct of foreign powers, what could be the benefit of interfering with other states, if by that interference our own population were to be loaded with excessive and intolerable burthens? It was impossible that the people of this country could be exposed to the taxation which they now endured, without expe word about it. The hon. and learned gentleman knows as well as I do, that if, in the course of the session, the question to which I allude should come under consideration, I shall be ready to meet-not the hon. and learned gentleman, for our opinions on the question agree-but the question itself, as I always have met it, with the most anxious and determined attention. Sir, not having been able exactly to understand the purpose of the hon. and learned gentleman's speech, but understanding that he does not mean to object to the Address, I have perhaps said enough on the present occasion; but I cannot sit down without congratulating the House on the accession of talent which they have gained in the hon. member who opened the debate of this evening. I trust, from the promising commencement of that hon. member's parliamentary career, that he will not confine himself to an occasional display, but that he will illustrate by the display of his abilities the various important questions which, from time to time, come under our consideration. I may also be allowed to say, that so far from my feeling the part which the hon. mover and seconder have taken this night the less acceptable, in consequence of their declarations that they are deter-riencing a degree of misery, which wisdom mined to exercise their own judgments on the subjects which may come under their consideration, that they will endeavour to keep their minds free from prejudice and open to conviction, and that they are resolved to mix a general support of his majesty's government with a general spirit of independence; I experience the greatest pleasure in hearing the statement. Such are the minds from whom we hope for the most beneficial, because the most honourable, aid; and it is only with such qualifications, and under such restrictions, that his Majesty's government ask the support of any man who now sits in this House for the first time. Mr. Brougham, in explanation, denied that he had any wish to see the estimates reduced below what the exigencies of the public service would permit. Mr. Hume reprobated the indisposition constantly exhibited, on the part of his Majesty's government, to diminish the naval, military and civil establishments of the country. Even where they had expressed any intention to do so, their acts had not corresponded with their declarations. If the hon. seconder of the Ad would teach us to make every effort to prevent. What was the object of all good government? To make the great mass of the people happy; to give them every enjoyment consistent with their own security. Was the House to be told by the right hon. gentleman, that because our interference in the affairs of Portugal might or might not be incidentally beneficial, government were warranted in keeping up our present immense establishments? If it were fitting to keep them up, let not the right hon. gentleman postpone his explanation. The present was the proper time. The prospects were most gloomy to the merchant, to the agriculturist, and to the manufacturer, whilst in all those branches of industry the labourers were placed in situations of extreme wretchedness. If any proofs of this assertion were wanted, it was only necessary to advert to the general wish that prevailed amongst the labourers, to be banished to some distant country. Every possible relief ought to be afforded to people so situated. Was the House to be drawn aside from this subject, by a declaration made by the right hon. gentleman, that there could not be any reductions in the burthens of the people? Would the country be satisfied with the mere assertion of the right hon. gentleman, that the sufferings of the people would admit of no alleviation? He had observed, that whenever the government saw an opportunity, however distant, of reducing the taxes, they never lost any occasion of blazing forth their intentions to the House. They had made no allusion to any relief from taxation in the present instance, and his experience taught him not to expect any. The government seemed to think that the difficulties and distresses were partial and temporary. So far from being of this opinion, he had every reason to believe that those distresses were general, deep-rooted, and increasing. He would therefore ask, if the House ought not to proceed, without delay, to inquire into the subject. He did not complain of any one thing stated in the Speech. All he complained of was, the omissions. He would not quarrel with one single expression that had fallen from the hon. gentleman who moved the address, but he would enter his protest against the doctrine, that the late war in India could not have been avoided. He maintained, that, with only a little moderation, the war might have been altogether avoided; for we were both the invaders and the aggressors. But it would be found a poor consolation, that the war was unavoidable, if those who thought so reflected, that no war had been ever carried on with greater loss to the country. He would say, that no men had ever conducted themselves with greater bravery, or suffered more in active service, than our troops had done in the Burmese campaigns. But, whilst he acknowledged the gallant conduct of our army, he would deny, that the wisdom of our councils in India was deserving of praise.-He would now request the attention of the House to a most important fact. We had now, for eleven years of peace, been supporting a full war establishment. We were keeping up a large standing army, unequalled in any former period of our history. Our military establishment was much larger than the military force we maintained during the American war, which was considered a war of great extravagance. He would call on the House, if they wished to see any relief afforded to the people-if they wished to see the property of the country protected from the hands of the tax-gatherer-to pledge themselves to an honest and scrupulous revision of the public expenditure. He wished the House to proceed, without any delay, to the examination and revision of every one of those public establishments, which the right hon. gentleman said he would be able to defend. When multitudes were wanting bread, it was not, to say the least of it, courteous in the government to put off the consideration of the complaints of the sufferers to an indefinite period. If gentlemen would revert to the proceedings of the last parliament, they might recol lect the anticipations that were held out by the Opposition side of the House, that, by a continued reduction of each head of taxes, they should find the country, after a peace of ten years, prepared, in case of necessity, to vindicate its character, and to defend its rights against all aggression. It was then alleged, that by continuing our war establishments in time of peace we eventually should not be able to act with spirit and independence in our foreign relations. That period had now arrived. We were not at this moment in a situation to treat foreign insults as we ought to have done. It might appear to the right hon. gentleman a mere trifle, that government only exacted, at the present moment, ten millions for the army, or that the aggregate demand upon the country was fifty-nine millions a year. Let the right hon. gentleman look back, and conceive the situation in which the country was placed by his refusing to make those reductions, which ought to have been made in the year 1817, agreeably to the recom→ mendation of the Finance committee. By this retrospect, he would at once see what great and important services he could have rendered to his country, had he stopped the lavish expenditure then going on. In the last nine years, the amount of taxes had been enormous. From 1817 to 1825, the tax-gatherers had collected not less than 531,000,0007. sterling, that was to say, on an average, 59,000,000%. a-year had been taken from the productive industry of the country. The question now was, whether they ought not to stop short, and avert the evils into which this system of extravagance had thrown it? One hundred and forty-two millions had been paid for what was called the peace establishment of the country. To his mind, the cause of all the distresses of the country was so evident, that he was surprised that that class-the agricultu- the Address to the Throne. In that year, ral-whose property must so materially 1822, the army, navy, and ordnance, suffer, did not see that taxation was the amounted to sixteen millions, in round canker-worm-the dry-rot, that under-numbers. In 1823, when they had a mined their property. This was the evil Speech stating to the House, that great to which they ought to apply the remedy. reductions would be made in the estimates The extravagant expenditure of which he in that very year, those estimates were complained had not been confined to the increased by half a million sterling. In army and navy. The civil establishments the following year, these estimates were had averaged more than 26,000,000l. a- raised to 17,500,0007. In 1825, the year; whilst our debt, on an average, had same amount was continued; and, in the increased by three millions a-year. It present year, those very estimates, which in ought to consider whether parliament, in 1822 amounted to only sixteen millions, its first Address to the Crown, should not were no less than 17,800,000l. being an manfully pledge itself to a scrupulous and increase to an amount which ought to rigid examination of all the public ex- induce the House not to let the present penses, with a view to effect every reduc-moment pass, without expressing their tion consistent with the safety of the coun- opinion, that it was by taxation that the try. The House ought not to be, and the present evils had been brought on. An country would not be, led aside from this hon. friend on his left (Mr. Baring) was paramount object, by the high-sounding frequently introducing the subject of the words of the right hon. gentleman. Good currency to the House. He would ask God, what a situation did the country that hon. gentleman, and the country genstand in! He would ask any hon. mem-tlemen at large, who it was that had to ber to name the country where privation, distress, and positive starvation, were equal to those which at present pressed upon the population of this empire. The evil had arrived to such a magnitude, that it endangered the very existence of the state. However exemplary the conduct of the people had been under the cruel circumstances into which they had been thrown, it was impossible for the evil to continue much longer. Would government expect the people to lie down and starve? The table of the House would be loaded with petitions upon this subject. Some petitioners would pray for banishment-others would pray for any possible relief from the acuteness of their sufferings. Could the House refuse to such people the declaration that it would immediately direct its attention to their wants? If, upon inquiry, it should appear that the present expenditure was proper, he would not object to things remaining as they were; if otherwise, they were in duty bound to relieve the sufferings of those who surrounded them. He would say, that taxation was not reduced, and that the public establishments were even increased. He would state one instance. The great war expenditure was in the army, navy, and ordnance. A reference to the papers on the table of the House, would show, that these heads of expenditure were brought to the lowest pitch in 1822; agreeably to the wish of the House, and bear the load of this continued taxation? Let them compare the relative situations of England in 1817 and 1818, after the termination of the war, when their property was of high value, in relation to the currency. He would ask these country gentlemen whether, now that the currency was raised in value by twentyfive per cent, they were able to pay the same amount of taxation which they before paid? He would beg these gentlemen to consider the manner in which they had to discharge their obligations. In 1817, the amount of taxation might be estimated to equal 15,000,000 quarters of corn. They were now called upon to pay 17,000,000 quarters. The actual difference was at least 1,500,000 quarters, and which was to be paid for taxes, in many cases, quite unnecessary and extravagant. He would advise the country gentlemen to look well to their situation, and not to be led astray by false or empty boasting, that the country had been relieved from taxation. When they settle their accounts at the end of the year, they will find themselves much worse off than at the end of former years. Was there a man in that House who could say that the situation of agricultural labourers was to be envied, in comparison to that of other classes? Every class and interest was suffering, and such deep and general evil could not depend, as was pretended, upon a casual cause. The source of the evil was deeply rooted. It was lamentable to see the sufferings of a people that were enlightened by instruction, and placed in a situation to appreciate benefits, or to feel the evils that press upon them. It was afflicting to see such a people raised to pride and the keenness of sensibility, by knowledge and intelligence, and yet pressed down by want and every sort of mortification. This was to be accounted for only by taxation. If no relief could be afforded to them, let them have at least the consolation to feel that the House had done its duty. There was not a merchant, a manufacturer, or an agriculturist, who could deny that property was depreciated. Profits were reduced, if not totally annihilated. He should repeat that, if ministers were not able to give relief to the country, they ought at once to say so. They wished to get over the evil day, and leave the result to the chapter of accidents. The final evil might fall upon their successors. This might be very well for those who calculated solely upon the tenure of office, and viewed the possibility of removal; but it was not so for those whose capital and property were affected by such conduct.-With respect to our foreign relations, he conceived that England had no business to meddle with foreign countries. She had enough to do with her own affairs. She had it in her power to be comfortable and secure within herself, and therefore need not interfere with other countries. The people would not bear to be taxed so enormously, to pursue the present line of foreign policy. With respect to Portugal, the House would not do its duty if it did not inquire whether such conduct ought to be pursued. This being his opinion, he was led to believe that ministers were not aware of the situation in which the country was placed. If they were, it would be impossible for them to speak in so cool a manner of the general distress; nor could they maintain so great an army, merely to cope with the military despots of the continent. He saw in government a disposition to render the military power paramount in England. The institutions of the country were all civil, but the military was tampering with the civil power, and interfering in a manner that ought to be stopped. He spoke not of any individuals, but of the system generally. Ministers had thought proper to congratulate the country, that there existed no apprehensions of a war. If this were so, what necessity was there to keep up a standing army of 86,000 men? If the right hon. Secretary would direct his agents at each foreign port to send him an account of the population and taxes of the country in which he resided, he would find that England stood unequalled in amount of taxation. Every English person, man, woman, and child, paid every year at the rate of 37. 10s. a head in taxes. In no other country did the people pay half as much. When the French revolution led us into war in 1793, the taxes amounted to only 16,000,0007., and every individual was comfortable in his class. Let gentlemen look at France at the present moment. She was prosperous and happy every man there had enough, whilst in England it was directly the reverse; scarcely any of the labouring classes had more than the bare means of existence. The rental of England was estimated at 40,000,0007., and more than the rental by one half was extracted from the people.-—He would now advert to the Corn-laws. The ministers had promised to meet this subject, and the plan they now proposed was trifling with the people: it was equally an insult to those who supported, and those who opposed the Corn-laws. If the Corn-laws ought not to be maintained, what time could be more proper than the present to alter them? Every man in England looked for that alteration at the present juncture. Every public assembly had agreed on this subject, not as formerly, by divisions, or with difficulty; but each meeting had carried its Address unanimously, for taking these laws into consideration. Landlords, like other people, were bound to take care of their own interests; but, on the other hand, he entreated them to consider, whether it was not material to all connected with them, to have the question decided ?-There was another subject on which he had wished to expatiate. There ought, in his opinion, to have been a statement from the Throne, recommending a revision of the whole of the civil law. At present, the process at law was endless, expensive, and most uncertain. Its evils had never been exceeded. Could any people sit down content under such a state of civil law? The criminal law had been, by every body, condemned as severe beyond reason, and in every respect improper to exist in a Christian country.. It would be a sad reproach to parliament |