a

prevent parties from engaging in such delusions, and he was quite ready to agree with the worthy alderman, that where fraud could be proved, it ought to be punished; but while he so far concurred with the worthy alderman, he could not join in the clamour against a principle, which was one of the great foundations of our commercial prosperity, and which he considered essential to the best interests of the country.

Colonel Davies said, that having been connected with one of those companies whose origin and conduct were now the subject of debate, he meant the Equitableloan company, of which he had been a director, he hoped he might be allowed to offer a few observations, with reference to what had fallen from the hon. alderman

terest of the parties who embarked in such speculations, but uniformly to the interest and advantage of the public. There could not, therefore, be a greater error or a greater delusion, than that under which it had been attempted to cry down Joint-stock companies as public evils. It was only in the last session, that efforts had been made to prevail on the Bank of England so far to relax its charter, as to admit of the formation of Joint-stock companies, with a view of rendering the business of banking less hazardous, and the example of Scotland was cited, where there was no impediment to the formation of such companies. The worthy alderman had talked as if the formation of Joint-stock companies for the purpose of carrying on the business of mining, was a new discovery. He, how-regarding that company, and those with ever, could tell the worthy alderman, that all the great mining works in this country had been carried on, time out of mind, by Joint-stock companies. The mines in Cornwall and in Wales had been conducted by such companies. It was most mischievous policy to attempt to discourage persons from embarking in such speculations, which were, in a great majority of cases, calculated to advance the public interest, or to take away the character of a man for having so done. He would not dispute that there had been many bubbles, as they were called, which reflected disgrace upon those who had concocted them; but he must repeat, that many of the projects which had been formed were likely to conduce, in a large degree, to the public interest. That the late bubbles, as they had been termed, were disgraceful to those who were connected with them, and who knew them to be bubbles, no man could deny; and whenever they should be brought under the consideration of the House, he would raise, as he always had raised, his voice against them, as schemes fraught with fraud in some instances, and with hazard and obvious folly in many others. The worthy alderman had particularly mentioned the Brick company, the Milk company, and some others of a similar description. Of these and other wild schemes, he had already expressed his opinion in that House; and he had warned the public against connecting themselves with schemes which had evidently no other foundation than the folly or avarice of the projectors. He wished that the law could

whom he had the honour to act. The hon. alderman had said, that every individual connected with the Equitable-loan company had carried on a base traffic in the shares. If this accusation were meant to apply to him, he must take leave to tell the hon. alderman, that it was false. The hon, alderman had added, that the company had been got up for fraudulent objects, and that all those connected with it must have known, and did know, that such was its character. If this imputation were levelled at him, he must assert that it was, in like manner, false and unfounded. He had become connected with the company, because he considered it of a beneficial character; but he had never trafficked in shares; and every engagement that he had entered into, in reference to it, he had fulfilled.

Mr. Hudson Gurney said, he did not rise to oppose the right hon. gentleman's amendment, as he must imagine he had well weighed its bearings and its consequences, and adopted the course he had taken as least objectionable in a choice of difficulties; still he could not but think it of most questionable precedent. The Arigna company was a very limited and strictly private association. The only parliamentary inquiries into transactions, supposed to be fraudulent, of which he was aware, were in the cases of the Charitable Corporation, and the South Sea. Both of these were public bodies. The South Sea founded on an arrangement of the Public Debt. The ministers of the Crown were parties supposed to be implicated; though the Directors were

those sacrificed to appease the public dis- I did not think that the eulogium which content. There was then no parliamen- had been passed on Joint-stock companies tary inquiry into the private bubbles, gross generally was any answer to the motion, as they were.

or the speech, of the worthy alderman. The only object the right hon. gentle- He had had an opportunity of witnessing man's amendment seemed to compass, the mischievous consequences of some of would be the giving the hon. gentleman the late Joint-stock companies, and he opposite the opportunity which he de- believed that a grosser system of fraud manded of vindicating his own conduct, and deception had never been practised and repelling what appeared to him, as in any country. The House was bound, singling that hon. gentleman out-who if it had any regard for its own characwas very slightly concerned in a general ter-for the character of parliament was infatuation-as a most unfair and invi-involved in that of the individual memdious attack. Now, as to the jurisdiction of the House of Commons in this case, it was undeniable, that the names of members of parliament had been put forward in these schemes in a most disgraceful manner. But all that the House could do, was to send a member back to his constituents. There had been a dissolution of parliament since these transactions, and without the record of a verdict of a court of justice obtained since such members re-electionhe did not see how the House could deal with a member of the last parliament, as to any matter which had occurred pre-racter had suffered their names to be viously to his return to the present one.

But the real evil was the state of the law relating to partnerships; and he did hope the government would seriously turn their attention to its emendation, so as to ensure some degree of safety to those who might be willing to adventure bona fide capital in such useful undertakings as were of a nature which individual means could not compass; and at the same time, to protect the public against the recurrence of such fraudulent associations as had lately prevailed-set on foot on a nominal capital-for the sole purpose of jobbing in shares.

Mr. G. Robinson said, he thought the worthy alderman who had brought forward the present motion must now see that the great extent of it would defeat the object which he had in view. He could not think that the worthy alderman, living as he had lived in this great city, and taking an active part in its affairs, could mean to include under one sentence of reprobation, all the Joint-stock companies which had been formed in this country. He had reprobated, and in his opinion justly reprobated, those ephemeral bubble companies, which differed as much from the companies which the right hon. President of the Board of Trade had eulogized, as light from darkness. He

bers who had been accused of a participation in these transactions-to carry its investigations beyond the scope proposed by the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs. An hon. member had stated, that he had attended only one meeting as a director of one of these Joint-stock companies, on which occasion he had given them most conscientious advice, and that he had never acted as a director in any other way; but this was one of the very things of which the public had a right to complain; namely, that men of high cha

mixed up with these schemes, and had afterwards neglected to pay that attention to their duties, which would have operated as a check on the conduct of others. In this way many honourable men had, however innocently, rendered themselves parties to these fraudulent schemes.

Sir C. Forbes said, he thought the worthy alderman entitled to approbation, for having had the spirit and the fortitude to say in that House what was universally said out of the House. At the same time, he could not but express his warmest admiration of the manner in which the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs had received the motion. He rose principally for the purpose of making an observation upon one of those Joint-stock companies which had been eulogized by the hon. member for Midhurst, in terms which certainly did not meet with his concurrence. It might be supposed, from the manner in which the hon. member had spoken of the Australian company, that it had been founded upon principles more liberal than those of any other company. Now, he begged leave to ask, whether this company was not founded upon a monopoly? He had received information on this subject, from undeniable authority, and he was enabled to state, that a monopoly had been granted to the

Australian company by the government, | natives of that part of New South Wales, for a period of twenty years. One million who had been described by travellers to acres of land, in the most fertile part of have been the most savage race on the the colony, had been granted to the com-face of the earth. Through kindness and pany, half of which they were to have the good treatment, however, many of these power of disposing of, on condition of savages had become partially enlightened, expending 100,000l. upon it. The land and a considerable alteration for the better was worth 5s. an acre, so that here was a had taken place in their manners and behabonus of about 250,000l. to the company. viour-a fact that conveyed in a forcible The committee of management in New manner this cheering truth, that kindness, South Wales was composed almost ex- and kindness alone, would do much good. clusively of members of one family, and the whole concern was, in fact, a job. With regard to the subject more immediately before the House, no man could be more anxious than he was, that the hon. member, who was most interested in the present discussion, should be able to acquit himself with honour and credit. But he felt, at the same time, that every conscientious member of that House was bound to call for the explanation which was necessary to clear up the mystery in which the transactions alluded to were involved; and he could not help recollecting, that the hon. member had not yet made any advances towards refunding the money, on his reception of which the demand for investigation was founded.

Mr. John Smith regretted that he was obliged to trouble the House with a few observations in consequence of what had fallen from the hon. baronet. The hon. baronet had certainly adopted a singular mode of making an attack against the Australian company. His information, he said, was confidential, and yet he had scrupled not to bring it forward, attacking all those who had had any concern with that company. He said that the whole thing was a job; but, in talking of the allotment of acres and other things, he did not appear to understand, that one of the principal objects of the Australian company was to raise a species of fine wool, which could not be procured elsewhere. With respect to the observation, that the affairs of the company had been placed in the hands of a particular family, he could only say that the hon. baronet was quite mistaken. The commissioners abroad had little or no power; for the fact was, that the whole business of the company was managed at home, and there was no part of its concerns that did not reflect the highest credit on the king's government. A most humane and successful endeavour had been made by the agent of the Australian company, to conciliate the original

Mr. Wilmot Horton said, that as the hon. baronet had affirmed, that he spoke from undeniable authority when he stated, that the Australian company had originated in some sinister consideration, on the strength of which it was patronised by the government, he felt it necessary to rise in his place to inform the hon. baronet that he was misled, and that, whatever might be the source of his information, he would do well to distrust it in future. The company had been sanctioned on mature consideration, and the conviction that nothing could be more beneficial to the interests of the population of New South Wales. The hon. baronet had talked of a monopoly. But how could it be called a monopoly to grant one million of acres to a company, where twenty more millions of acres lay? It was proper to observe, in reference to the observations of the hon. baronet, that although this company, as well as the Canadian, and the Van Diemen's Land company, was formed under the auspices of the colonial department, yet not a single share in any of these companies was possessed by any individual connected with that department.

Mr. Hart Davis said, that if there was any association or company in this country, that promised greater advantages to the colony, and to the mother country, than another, that company was the Australian. It was formed upon public principles, and acted upon public principles. The directors, who were only twenty-four in number, held more than half the shares. He, as a director, had never sold a share, although they bore a high premium; and he believed he might say the same of the other directors.

Mr. Taylor also defended the Australian company, and said, he was convinced the hon. baronet must have been deceived by his informant.

Mr. Alderman Waithman observed, that it was not his intention, after the kindness with which the House had fa

voured him before, to trouble them with Lords. Another hon. member (Mr. Attany thing in the shape of a reply; but he wood), whose opinions and observations could not abandon his motion without upon the subject of Joint-stock companies stating why he had no objection to the deserved particular attention, not only amendment. He had at first submitted from his general knowledge, but from his that motion to the consideration of the experience upon such matters, which was right hon. gentleman opposite, and as- certainly greater than that of any man in certained that he was not hostile to its that House-as great, perhaps, as that of object; but he had avoided any confine- any man in the country-that hon. memment of the inquiry, such as that effected ber had asserted, that the company to by the amendment, because he wished to which he alluded was no delusion. He shun the appearance of attacking any par- had been accused of being too vague and ticular individual. Agreeing, as he did, general in his charges; but instead of however, with respect to the propriety of vague and sweeping observations, he had the amendment, and observing that all confined himself to facts; one was, that parties in the House seemed to be of the the company gave out that the directors same opinion, whatever might be the held three hundred shares a-piece, which tenor of their observations in other re- they altered, without any public notice, to. spects, he would not have thought it ne- twenty shares. He would ask the hon. cessary to trouble them with any further gentleman as an auditor of this company, remarks, had not some gentleman, in the with forty-five directors, seven of whom course of the debate, seemed to labour were members of parliament, whether they under an impression of his being disposed did not libel an individual who opposed to condemn Joint-stock companies gene- the company; whether the money for the rally, and not those particular specula- inscrtion of that libel in a public journal tions to which he had taken the liberty was not paid for by a check subscribed by of directing their attention. He had not, three of the directors; and whether that certainly, contemplated the necessity of check was not paid by the house of the guarding himself against such an inference, hon. member who was auditor of the comnor did he think it likely that any man pany? He would here take occasion to could have supposed him guilty of such a mention, that it was the object of those want of discretion, as to attack, or call for opposed to the bill to prove that it never condemnation on, those who had embarked could be a public benefit. The great their property in speculations, where the argument for the bill, in the original preambasis of the enterprise was well understood, ble was, that it would prove so; but let the and its objects clearly and precisely de- House mark the hypocrisy with which the fined. He never intended to cast any im- | company conducted their operations. putation on such companies; and he beg-When it was found that the point was to be ged to say, once for all, that he agreed, to the fullest extent, in every thing which bad fallen from the right hon. President of the Board of Trade, upon the subject of those institutions which were fostered and promoted through the means of Jointstock associations. He fully appreciated the advantage which the country, as well as individuals, had derived from the application of capital in that form; and he repeated, that his observations had re-ingly appointed. ference only to those speculations which had no definite object; which were bottomed in fraud, and were solely intended to delude the ignorant, the credulous, or the unwary. With respect to the observations of the hon. member for Midhurst, upon the Equitable-loan company, he begged to premise, that all the documents upon which he had grounded his statement had been produced to the House of

opposed, it was struck out of the bill. If that bill had received the sanction of parliament, no tradesman could have carried on his business with security.

The question as amended; namely, "That a select committee be appointed to inquire into the origin, management, and present state of the Arigna Iron and Coal Mining Company," was then put and agreed to; and a committee was accord

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, December 6.

ROMAN CATHOLICS-EXCOMMUNICATION BY CATHOLIC PRIESTS.] Mr. Moore said, he held in his hand a petition from Mr. Emanuel Hutchinson Orpen, of Dublin, on a most important subject. The petitioner complained of the power exer

when the various election petitions from Ireland came to be considered. If those petitions should be abandoned, then he would be entitled to say that no such impropriety had occurred. The hon. member regretted the combination of religion and politics. He regretted it also. Every good man regretted it. It defiled religion, and perverted politics: The error, however, was in those institutions which persevered in connecting them. In the laws which withheld their civil rights from the Catholics, might be traced the origin of the evil complained of.

cised by the Roman Catholic priesthood in Ireland to denounce by way of excommunication, persons of their own faith, who refused to concur with them in their political objects. The dangerous character of a control of this description must be too obvious to render it necessary for him to insist upon it; and it was not his intention to enter into any details at that moment, as, in the course of the session, various occasions would arise when it might be more advantageously discussed. The House would, however, permit him to make one observation. The power against which Mr. Orpen petitioned was a power not quiescent. It was a power which was not only capable of being exercised, but which had been actually and extensively exercised, for the purpose of inflicting some of the most serious grievances to which any member of a community could be subjected. It was a power, the bare possession of which, even if it were never exercised was calculated to give to the Roman Catholic priesthood a most dangerous influence over the laity. One of the most striking characteristics of this power was its creation of that mixed system of religion and politics which had placed his majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in Ireland in that position with respect to the state, which put it totally out of their power to give security for the due exercise of whatever political rights might be conceded to them. He confessed that this consideration, with many others, impressed him most strongly with the conviction, that the Roman Catholics could give no security which would render it safe to make any further conces-curity which would render it safe to make sion to them.

Mr. Spring Rice did not rise to oppose the bringing up of the petition. On the contrary, it was his opinion that every man was entitled to complain to that House of any grievances under which he laboured. He rejoiced, therefore, that Mr. Orpen had come to that House; and he trusted, that if petitions from other individuals of a different nature should come to the House hereafter, the hon. member would be disposed to receive them with equal readiness. The hon. gentleman had stated what was known to all; namely, that the Roman Catholic priesthood possessed the power of excommunication. The question was, whether or not that power had been carried beyond its proper exercise. That was a question which would be tried upon the evidence of witnesses on oath,

Mr. James Grattan said, he could not hear the allegations of the petition without declaring in his conscience, that he did not believe that the power possessed by the Catholic priesthood had been exercised to the extent alleged. He knew it was utterly impossible to disconnect the subjects of religion and politics in Ireland; but he believed that the opposite party was liable to a similar imputation. If the Roman Catholic priesthood exercised their influence with the Catholic laity, for political purposes, there could be little doubt that our own clergy exercised their influence for similar objects. He regretted that the hon. member should have indulged in a tirade against the Catholics, on grounds which, in his opinion, were wholly untenable.

Colonel Torrens observed, that the hon. member who had presented the petition had uttered one sentiment, which he would never hear in silence. That sentiment was, that the Catholics could give no se

any further concession to them. What security was required? If the legislature gave them political power, would not their love of that power induce them to retain it by their conduct? If the sentiment of the hon. member were largely acted upon, it would tend directly to the dismemberment of the empire.

The Petition was then brought up and read. It stated the outrages and atrocities which had, at various times, been committed in Ireland, and which it imputed principally to the influence of the Roman Catholic priesthood; and it prayed, that henceforward, any person denouncing an individual by way of excommunication, or pronouncing an anathema upon him, should be subject to a penalty of 201., recoverable by civil bill before the assistant Barrister; and that any individual so ag