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other reasons, that they had often been compelled to borrow capital at a higher rate of interest. He was not altogether satisfied with the amendment of the hon. member for Bridgenorth; but, on the whole, he liked it better than the propositions of ministers, and would therefore vote for it.

Sir F. Burdett said, that he found he differed so much from many hon. members, that perhaps the committee would excuse him if he trespassed longer on their attention than would otherwise be necessary. He could not, however, avoid premising that there was one unfortunate and prevalent error on this subject; namely, a general impression that there was a contention of interests in the state between agriculture and manufactures. A worthy alderman had in some degree lent his countenance to this error. The worthy alderman had accused the landed gentlemen of being a peculiarly grasping avaricious class of persons. However, justice ought to be done to the worthy alderman, for, in another part of his speech, he had said, that the landed gentlemen were amongst the most liberal in the country. In such opinion he cordially agreed with the worthy alderman. He repeated, what he had on a former occasion declared; namely, that there was no class of men in this country (and if not in this country, not in the world), more liberal, or more considerate, in all their dealings than the country gentlemen of England-the class to which he had the honour to belong. The hon. alderman seemed to think it an absurd position to say, that if every man in the country had a guinea in his pocket to-morrow, no man would be the better for it. Nevertheless, such was clearly the fact; because, as every man would remain in the same relative position, no man would be able to command more of the conveniences and comforts of life. When the House considered, that the landed interest was that out of which every other interest sprung-that without a productive agriculture there could be no large body of merchants and manufacturers—no great quantity of goods sold or manufactured no traders exchanging produce between the two bodies; that, in fact, all commerce grew out of the prosperity of agriculture, they must be convinced, that the interests of both were one and the same, and that all depended on the welfare of the landed interest. If that was impoverished, all the

He

other interests must suffer with it. was aware there was one class of persons who had indeed a different interest. He alluded to the national creditor, the annuitant, and those who were in the pay of government. These formed what was called the unproductive part of the community. But though their interest was really opposed to that of the rest of the community, the difference was not such as to excite their jealousy or hostility. Something had been said, in the course of this discussion, respecting the change that had been made from the Winchester measure to that which was termed the Imperial measure. This change would illustrate his opinion of the cause from which all the difficulties of the country had arisen. He was one of those who thought that the distress of the country was altogether of an artificial nature-that it resulted from bad legislation, and from bad legislation alone. There had been another very material change, not only of the bushel that was applicable simply to corn, but of that common measure of the value of all commodities in the land, which was called currency; and this change had been nearly in the same proportion as that from the Winchester measure to the Imperial; namely, about one third. The country gentlemen found themselves embarrassed because they were called upon to pay same amount of taxes out of a diminished income. Suppose, for example, an act of parliament had been passed, requiring persons who had entered into contracts in the Winchester measure to fulfil them in the Imperial measure, could such a proceeding be justified? Would it not be a gross fraud upon those who had entered into the contracts? This was just the case of the country. Government, he believed, was not aware of the effect it would produce, when it changed the currency. It was his opinion, however, that, if that currency had not been altered, there would have been no agricultural distress. What was the evidence of facts upon this subject? During the twenty years previous to the late change in the currency, there had been no distress in the country; but, on the contrary, while there was a large annual importation of foreign corn, every interest, including that of agriculture, flourished in an extraordinary degree. The only wonder was, how, after so prodigal an expenditure, the country had not. only been able to bear it, but, at the close

the

of that war, to find itself more flourishing and more prosperous than it was at its commencement. The agricultural interest had never been injured by the importation of foreign corn until another cause had operated upon it; and then, and not till then, distress ensued. It was palpable that the whole evil had arisen from mistaken legislation. He believed government had intended well. The principles on which they had acted were good in the abstract, but not applicable to the circumstances of the country when they were carried into effect. The hon. alderman had charged the landed gentleman with being reckless of all interests but their own; and he had intimated, that they were ready, for their own relief, to apply a sponge to the national debt: in short, that they care about nobody but themselves. He had heard declarations made in that House, which could leave no doubt of the utter groundlessness of that imputation. When hints of that kind had been thrown out, landed gentlemen had got up and declared, that sooner than lower the interest of the public debt-not to talk of wiping it away altogether-they would strip the coats off their backs; and even stronger expressions had been uttered, which he would not repeat. On such occasions, none had expressed themselves more warmly than the landed gentlemen. If justice, however, was due to the public creditor, government owed an equal measure of justice to the landed interest of the country. When government contracted the currency, they did to the landed interest precisely the same thing as if they had broken faith with the national creditor, by at once lowering the rate of interest, and paying him a less sum than they had contracted to give him. A contrary effect had not been produced by augmenting the currency; because the process was gradual, and the injury was not felt, as it came on those who suffered it by degrees. Prices were thus almost imperceptibly raised; and the whole frame of society was settled on the basis of high prices. He differed entirely in opinion from those who were favourable to low prices. Taking all the circumstances of the country into consideration, he was convinced that high prices were necessary to its ease and rity, in its present condition. Nobody could really benefit by low prices. The labouring classes would receive only as much wages as was proportioned to the price of VOL. XVI.

prospe

food.

All parties would stand in the same relative position. The great object to be gained for the relief of the country was, that all its burthens should be reduced, in proportion to the increased value of the currency. The distresses of the country resulted from the existing contracts having been made during high prices, while the parties were called upon to fulfil them at the standard of low prices. An equitable adjustment of contracts was that which alone could fully relieve the country. He admitted that the difficulty of carrying such a measure into effect would be great; but it was nonsense to deny that it was desirable. He thought it unlikely that corn would ever rise to such a price as to give practical effect to the proposed Resolutions. It was true, it might do so through a famine; but that, instead of benefitting, would inflict injury on the agriculturist. He believed that no country ever had two such distressing measures imposed upon it at once as the Corn-law of 1815, and the Bullion act, each of them deeply affecting the vital interests of the country, The effect of them was, necessarily, to throw the country into dreadful disorder. If we had adhered to the existing system, palliating and mollifying the evils and inconvenience of it from time to time, we should have done much better; and the country, he firmly believed, instead of being in a state of distress; instead of seeing its industrious farmers dragged to prison for debts which the fault of the legislature, and not their own misconduct, had brought upon them, would have been in a state of unexampled prosperity.

Mr. W. Duncombe concurred in the principle of the resolutions, proposed by the right hon. Secretary.

Mr. Alderman Atkins also stated his approbation of the measures of government.

The Committee divided on the Amendment: Ayes 50; Noes 335; Majority against the Amendment 285.

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Ramsden, J. C.

Whitmore, W. W.

Waithman alderman
Warburton, H.
Wood, alderman
Wood, J.

convinced that the abolition of this anIcient abuse would render soldiers more attached to the service, he would move, that a clause be brought up to rescind the provisions, for the infliction of Corporal Punishment in the British Army.

Mr. J. Smith said, that he should make a few observations in consequence of facts

The chairman reported progress, and which had come to his knowledge, and asked leave to sit again.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 12.

which added to the distrust he had always entertained of the efficacy of corporal punishment. Indeed, he much doubted, whether punishment inflicted on the body ever caused the reform of persons addicted to crime; and his opinion had been con

MUTINY BILL-CORPORAL PUNISH-firmed, by the circumstances which he MENT.] On the order of the day for the third reading of this bill,

should state. In the month of September last, he happened to be detained Mr. Leycester observed, that, after three three weeks in a garrison town in France; nights' consultation with his pillow, he and, during that period, he had an opporhad hoped the noble Secretary at War tunity of examining minutely and acwould have come down with the announce- curately, the way in which five thousand ment, that he had abandoned the barba- five hundred French soldiers were kept in rous clause in this bill, for the infliction order, and he would assert, that their disof Corporal Punishment. That barbarous cipline and conduct were in no respect inpractice showed to what loathsome habits ferior, and in some things, probably, suthe human mind might bring itself-how perior, to our own. No French soldier ever even the natural feelings might be chained was subjected to a blow: it was considered under the influence of custom. If this a dishonour, to both the party who gave, practice were now to be commenced, the and him who suffered, such an indignity; man who should propose it would meet and, without noticing what some persons with universal reprobation: and why was thought of the necessity of recourse being that which was too bad to be begun, not had to such a mode of punishment, he too bad to be continued? This cruel code was of opinion, that there was no sentiwas justified, upon the principle of neces-ment which it was more desirable to imsity; but where was the paramount, the press upon a soldier, than the principle over-ruling, necessity for the practice of that a blow was a disgrace. The punishflogging? It was proved not to be neces-ments inflicted in the French army were sary, by the diminution of the practice in the British army, by its non-existence in the continental armies, and in our own volunteer corps, which were not made of the most pliable materials. But he would not trust professional men with the decision upon the moral expediency of professional rules. He would rather refer to the tribunal of common sense, by which tribunal, he was sure the practice would be pronounced a curse to him who suffered, a torment to him who inflicted, unworthy of our gallant army, and a stain upon the character of Great Britain. At all events, a tribunal ought to give the benefit of

confinement, hard labour, and privation; and it was unquestionable, that punishments like those could not have the effect of making a man a worse soldier than before, while the infliction of corporal punishment was almost certain to do so. In support of that fact, the hon. member stated a conversation which he had had with a respectable and intelligent individual, the governor of a prison, respecting the result of those corporal punishments inflicted every five or six weeks after the sessions; and it appeared, that the greater part of those who suffered those punishments, came again into his custody within

Mr. Hobhouse said, he had the other night expressed a wish to see a clause in the bill, making it necessary that the persons composing a court-martial should be unanimous previous to its passing any sentence. The noble Secretary at War had objected, that any factious subaltern might then, in order to acquire popularity, prevent any corporal punishment from being inflict

it could be reconciled, that one out of five on a court-martial, should not prevent a sentence, seeing that twelve men were required to be unanimous in our courts, before the slightest punishment could be inflicted. The improvement he proposed was only a palliative; and, perhaps, it would not be wise to attempt a reform in what was radically bad. He had attentively listened to what had fallen from the gallant officers in the army on this sub

a twelve-month. Several gallant officers who had spoken upon this subject said, that the discipline of the English army would be destroyed, if corporal punishment was not preserved, and seemed to treat the objections made to it with some degree of scorn. They could not, however, justly do so, until they had ascertained whether there were not other punishments which would be sufficient. He did not know whe-ed in the regiment. He did not know how ther the British army afforded such conveniences for solitary confinement as existed in the French service. He had the opinion of a gallant officer who had served in the four quarters of the globe, that these corporal punishments were highly objectionable. Neither was that officer's opinion unsupported by experience; for he had commanded two troops of dragoons, for the space of two years, without ever having had recourse to flogging. It happened that, during the period of that offi-ject; but, the only reason they gave for cer's command, there was one individual whom he feared he should be obliged to send to head-quarters; but, on the day fixed for that purpose, a petition was presented from the men, stating, that the detachment had been for two years without any corporal punishment, and that they felt acutely that any one belonging to it should so suffer; they implored that the offender might be pardoned, and hoped that they, themselves, would be able to keep him in order. The officer complied, and the man sinned no more. It might, perhaps, be imagined, that these troops were, in consequence of this treatment, badly disciplined and instructed; but, on the contrary, upon inspection they were declared to be the best in the regiment. He would not have alluded to this, only to show how an officer had succeeded in instilling into his men that best of feelings, the wish to avoid disgrace. Lord Nugent agreed with his hon. friend in the view he had taken of the system of flogging, and was sure that, if a proposition for its adoption were now before the House for the first time, it would not be agreed to. The only difference at present between the advocates and the opponents of the system was, whether a course equally beneficial could be substituted for that now in operation. He had heard of a correspondence which had passed about eleven or twelve years ago, between the lieutenant-governor of Gibraltar and the deputy inspector of hospitals there, and the consequence was, that from that period flogging had been disused in that garrison.

defending it, that he could discover, was, that it ought to be continued because it had existed. But this, he thought, was bad reasoning, and not such as should induce the House to continue such a degradation on our brave defenders. He had heard an officer say, that in this regiment some of the men were brought out so frequently to be flogged, that they were known by the name of the flogging-blocks; and this circumstance demonstrated that, so far from flogging making them better soldiers or men, no good could be derived from it; and as no benefit resulted from the revolting custom, it ought to be abolished as being a national disgrace, and as placing our army in its discipline and honour second to that of France. He was glad to find the question brought before the House whenever an occasion presented itself; but he would rather that some regular motion had been made respecting it; and he hoped that no session would be suffered to pass away, without some effort being made to relieve the sol dier from this abominable punishment.

Sir John Sebright said, he was ready to take his share of the unpopularity which might be attached to supporting the practice complained of. He had been in the army in the early part of his life, and from his knowledge of the military service, it was his opinion that the system ought to be upheld. He was fully impressed with the belief, that the excellent discipline that now prevailed in the army was in a great measure to be attributed to the

existed between flogging a boy of sixteen at school, and flogging a soldier of sixteen in the army? Where was the difference between inflicting corporal punishment upon the back of a soldier, who had been convicted of a flagrant offence, and whip

coercion which had been adopted; as, by removing that want of discipline which had previously existed, it had produced a happiness to the soldier to which he was before a stranger. It would be asked how this could happen? The answer was— because every man in the army under-ping on some other part of the body of a stood discipline better, and was less liable to disobey orders. On the subject of courts-martial, he must beg to make a few observations, as he too had had some experience in these matters. They could, he might say with justice, be termed paternal or domestic tribunals; for in all cases the commanding officer had the power of dispensing mercy in his hands, and was ever ready to exercise it, when there was occasion for his interference. The whole system was, in his opinion, excellent; and though he might incur public odium by so doing, he should always feel it a duty to give it his sanction and support.

Sir A. Hope wished much, that a regular motion had been brought forward for the discussion of this question, as these desultory conversations unsettled men's minds, and prevented them from coming to a proper conclusion. It had been well remarked by the hon. baronet who spoke last, that in the system which was now acted upon, corporal punishment contributed to the happiness of the soldiers. If it were to be considered as a question of feeling, it certainly was one more particularly so to officers of the army, than to visionary philanthropists, who had no opportunity of judging of the necessity which might exist for it. He would say, that if, in the paternal government of the army, and what was properly called, the family trial of a court-martial, where he who passed the sentence did so upon oath, and where the commanding officer, who had the power of mercy to alter that sentence, found himself obliged to inflict this punishment, no one could imagine, that such a punishment would be wantonly inflicted.

the

school-boy, who had been accused of
some petty delinquency? He thought
that the agitation of this question was
productive of infinite mischief.
It had
the worst effects upon the minds of the
soldiers; and he sincerely hoped that the
House would now, at once, deliberate
upon it, and set the question at rest for
ever.

Mr. Wynn inquired, what question was before the House.

The Speaker replied, that it was the third reading of the Mutiny bill.

Mr. Wynn observed, that it would then be more regular to let the question before the House be disposed of, and then such a clause as hon. members seemed to wish might be brought under consideration.

The bill was then read a third time.

The

Mr. Leycester in proposing a clause to prevent corporal punishment in the army, said, that whether or not a discussion on the present shameful system produced agitation in the minds of the soldiers, he cared not. He should always raise his voice against flogging soldiers. clause which he proposed was intended as an experiment; and if it was found on trial not to be beneficial, it would be easy hereafter to get rid of it. It had been observed by a right hon. gentleman on the other side of the House, on a former night, that "where there was a will there was a way." Now, he begged to use the same expression in reference to the abolishing of flogging; and he really conceived it high time that something should be done with a view of obtaining what appeared to him so highly desirable.

Mr. Warburton would ask, what the Turk said to produce submission? "Use the bastinado," was the reply. And what Colonel Trench said, that one point in said the colonial cultivator? That the present discussion appeared to have lash could not be dispensed with-as if been untouched by the hon. members who the circumstance of a man being born had addressed the House. They seemed with a dark instead of a white skin could totally to have lost sight of the fact, that prevent his cultivating the soil in the same much flogging existed independent of manner as the European did. The hon. what took place in the army; and yet a member for Hertfordshire had uttered thought of complaining against it to the language in reference to the subject of legislature never entered the head of any flaggellation, which he never expected to What distinction, he would ask, I have heard from him. He never imagined

man.

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