union, Ireland had just as much right to export grain to this country, as Berkshire had to send into any other county in England; but then he wished, at the same time, that Ireland should be taxed by poorlaws in the same manner as Berkshire was. From such a proposal he should certainly dissent; and he trusted that the House would not be deluded by these partial observations, into the supposition that the poor-laws could ever be successfully introduced into Ireland. bourers. They came to this country poor and destitute; and after labouring, to the injury of the working classes in England, they returned to Ireland with money sufficient for the payment of the rent of those farms which the hon. member for Derry described them as taking so improvidently. He did not wish to undervalue the merits of the industry of the Irish peasant; but he was satisfied that their emigration to this country produced evils which ought to be corrected. Sir H. Parnell contended, that no relief, such as that suggested by the hon. member for Dublin, could prove effectual, until there was a greater security for property in Ireland, and until the rate of wages was increased by the employment of capital. As long as the Irish peasant could not find labour at home, or labour at so low a rate of wages as to be insufficient for his support, he would leave his country whenever an opportunity presented itself. Colonel Trench, while he deplored the state to which Ireland was reduced, could not consent to emigration as a remedy for its evils. He was convinced that if the plan of emigration was put into effect, to the extent proposed by those who embraced it, its effect would be to carry away from Ireland all its best labourers, all those who possessed industry, skill, or a small capital; and that instead of leaving that country in a condition to become better, it would deprive it of all the elements of prosperity. Mr. H. Grattan said, that the poverty of Ireland not only was and had been very great, but that its poverty had cost this country no inconsiderable sum. The hon. member then adverted to the subscriptions which had been raised in this country, in 1822, in order to relieve the distresses which then prevailed in Ireland. In the city of Dublin, at this present moment, not only poverty but disease reigned every where. The hon. member then read, from a report of the state of the poor in Dublin, an account of the number of destitute in different parishes, and declared, that in many, a great part of the population was supported by the contributions received from benevolent individuals, who were encouraged to give their bounty on the application of the residents of the parishes, going round from house to house. Want, disease, and misery, went hand in hand in that unfortunate city; and, unless something was done speedily by the government, a state of things must ensue, which it was painful to contemplate. Something ought to be done, and done shortly; for, although the hon. member for Derry might contend that the poor-laws were inapplicable to Ireland, yet, when the question was between life and death, extraordinary remedies must be their only resort. General Gascoyne, as one of the representatives of Liverpool, felt himself called upon to protest against the system of passing vagrants to Ireland by that port. Mr. James Grattan said, he had heard Upwards of one third of all the rates col- some hon. members, and among them the lected in that town were expended upon member for Derry, say, that the poor-laws the passing of Irish to their own country. must make the state of Ireland infinitely He must either beg the hon. member for worse than it was. Now, the hon. memWicklow to persevere in the motion of ber for Drogheda had just stated, that which he had given notice, or call upon there were five thousand paupers in one the House himself to adopt some measure, district, and he would ask what state which might relieve his constituents from could be worse than that? What alterathe annually increasing burthen thus im- tion could place them in a state more deposed upon them. The people of Ireland plorable? He knew that, but for the exhad very good reason for giving encou-ertions of a Mendicity Society, supported ragement to the emigration of Irish la- by voluntary contribution, in the city of VOL. XVI. Mr. J. Maxweil complained of the inundation of Irish into Scotland, where they could neither be relieved nor supported. Mr. Van Homrigh described the condition of the part of Ireland which he represented as most deplorable, as there were more than five thousand paupers in Drogheda and its vicinity. 2 N Dublin, it would be impossible, at that | two very moment, for any shop-keeper to keep his door open for the purpose of carrying on business. But for the exertions of that Society, the doors would be so besieged with mendicants, that all passage must be impossible. With respect to the motion of which he had given notice, he certainly could not pledge himself to press it, in opposition to the declared hostility of so many Irish members; he would reserve himself, therefore, for a future occasion, merely declaring that his opinion, as to its expediency, had not undergone any material change. Ordered to lie on the table. CORN LAWS.] The House having, on the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, again resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider further of the Corn Trade Acts, Mr. W. Whitmore rose to submit the Resolution to the Committee, which he deemed necessary, in consequence of the Resolutions submitted on a former night, by the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs, not being, in his opinion, such as to afford satisfaction, or to meet the exigences of the country. He implored the indulgence of the House whilst he called their attention to this most important question-important to all classes of the country-to some a question of life or death, and one on which he hoped the fullest and most deliberate discussion would take place, before any measure was hurried through the House and hastily adopted. In what he was about to offer, he would regard the subject with a view to the general interests of the whole country; satisfied that he would thereby act in a manner most conducive to that interest the agricultural interest-with which he was himself connected, and which would be most affected by the measure now before the House. Having thus claimed the indulgence of the House whilst he addressed them on this most important, as well as most intricate and difficult subject, he would, without further preface, proceed shortly to lay before the House his views upon it. Before he proceeded, however, to state his opinions as to the effect of the principle of prohibition, he would admit that the measure introduced by the right hon. Secretary was an improvement, but yet a slight improvement, on the former system. There were consequences invariably resulting from a principle of prohibition, from which the present measure was not quite free; first, that it led to a great fluctuation of prices, with all the mischiefs attendant upon fluctuation; and secondly, that in proportion as you stop the trade in corn, in the same proportion do you interfere with the price of labour which is depressed at home, and raised abroad. Besides, the effect of such a principle is, that the fluctuations of seasons are felt with accumulated pressure; the supply is rendered precarious; and a discouragement given to the growth of corn abroad-a permitted regular importation of which into the country, would have the beneficial tendency to produce the desirable result; namely, equalization of prices. Add to this that when a supply is required, from a regular supply and demand not being kept up from abroad, the price is always high. This inability to get the quantity you require, together with the effect of opinion, which always has a tendency to raise the price above the necessity of the case, keeps up the price to an enormous and most pernicious height. But, after a time, the fall is carried to as great an extent on the other side; and this sudden and great fluctuation it is, that is most injurious to the agricultural interests. It produces an unnatural state of things, and falls with a pressure that it is lamentable to contemplate on the farmer, who has, as at the time when the price was high, to pay the poor-rates, tithes, and other heavy charges, to which the agricultural interest is principally liable. It was said by some gentlemen in the course of this discussion, that the great fluctuation that occurred in the high prices in 1817 and 1818, and the low prices of 1820 and 1821, occurred from the great import of corn. But this, though it might be a concurrent cause, was not the only one producing that fluctuation. In the spring of 1818, 1,500,000 quarters of wheat-the greatest quantity ever imported in one year into this country-was imported, he must say, without a corresponding necessity for such importation. The harvest of 1819 was a good, at least a tolerably good, harvest, but that of 1820 was a great harvest. From the great abundance, therefore, supplied from these two sources-excess of importation, and an extraordinary harvest there was a quantity in the country which its con, try, would flow from it. Suppose, that, in the ports of the Baltic, corn is 25s. a quarter, and that in this country it is 60s. will not this difference of 35s. operate as a premium to the capitalists of this country, to transfer their capital abroad, where there is a promise of its yielding larger profits. It was a principle implanted in the breast of man, which had ever been and ever would be acted upon, that wherever the largest profits could be realized upon capital, there capital would be employed. Individual attachments might bind a man to his country and his friends; but, although he might continue to reside here, his capital would be employed abroad. This was true in theory it was also true in practice. That high duties upon the necessaries of life were fatal to the prosperity of commercial and manufacturing countries, was shown by a passage in Adam Smith, which he would read to the House. It was as follows sumption could not absorb. This produced the depression down to 43s.; and similarly great and sudden depressions must inevitably occur again if we continue to cherish the principle of prohibition. This violent fluctuation in prices is injurious to no interest more than the agricultural. All the various charges incurred by the farmers were augmented by the price of corn continuing high for a period of two consecutive years. His arrangements of various kinds were contingent upon the continuance of high price; and, therefore, when a fall in price suddenly came upon him, he became involved in difficulties and embarrassments which followed from his relying on the continuance of high prices and high rents. He had himself felt the embarrassments resulting from such a violent and sudden change; and it was to prevent the recurrence of them to himself and others, that he wished to see the principle of prohibition superseded by a regular trade" Duties upon flour and meal, when in corn, subject of course to such regulations as would afford adequate protection to the home-grower, but at the same time hold out fair encouragement to the foreign grower, and an inducement to foreign importation. Having enforced the inexpediency and danger that would result from the principle of prohibition, he would next call the attention of the committee to the mischief that must accrue from keeping up the price of corn in this country to an artificial height, and to one quite disproportionate to the cost at which corn was grown on the continent. This was an important view of the question in this commercial country. Capital was the life and active principle of that commerce, and on the profits of that capital the subsistence of so many depended. By raising the price of corn here by prohibition, or by high duties equivalent to prohibition, you increase the price of labour; and, as the profits on capital depend on the prices of labour, the effect of a high and artificial price of corn is, to diminish the profits on capital; and is it to be supposed, that capital will remain in this country, if the profits upon it are reduced, and if higher profits can be realized abroad? And it should be further considered, as the price of labour is raised here, it is lowered abroad. Again, he would say, that if we continued our present system, capital, so necessary to a great commercial and manufacturing coun ground at the mill, and upon bread, when baked at the oven, take place in many countries. In Holland the money price of the bread consumed in towns is supposed to be doubled by means of such taxes. In lieu of a part of them, the people who live in the country pay every year so much ahead, according to the sort of bread they are supposed to consume. Those who consume wheaten bread, pay three guilders fifteen stivers; about 6s. 94d. These, and some other taxes of the same kind, by raising the price of labour, are said to have ruined the greater part of the manufactures of Holland." Was it not consistent with common sense, with the experience that they all had with the world, that if a man could only get a return of three per cent on his capital in this country, and could get a return of ten per cent upon it in Germany, or any other country, he would employ his capital in the country in which his capital was most productive? It may be within the recollection of the House, that, some time ago, when the interest on money was so low in this country, capitalists employed their capital in foreign loans, which yielded a larger interest, and thereby so much of the country's capital was withdrawn from the support of its commercial and manufacturing prosperity. The residence of capitalists here, after the outlay of their capital in other countries, was unimportant; many of the Dutch capitalists resided in Holland, after they had disposed of their capitals in foreign loans. He dwelt thus much on this part of the subject; for it should be borne in mind, that were it not for the wealth of the country, that House would not be in a situation to make Corn-laws. If capital was lost, the life that supported those laws was gone; for they depended on the wealth and the population of the country. They were a useless and idle letter, if there was not a population in the country with mouths to consume the corn, and wealth in the country to purchase it. Now, as to the new system which it was 'proposed to substitute for that which was in force, it was not easy to see all the evils that might follow from it; it would be sufficient to shew that some great evils would result, to induce him to withhold from it his assent. He did not think that the evils to be apprehended from fluctuation of price would be corrected by commencing the duty at 20s. when the price was at 60s. If there was a deficiency in the supply, the price would easily rise to 65s.; and if by the fall in the stock of grain here the price should rise to 70s., the foreign grower would pour a great quantity into this country at a great advantage; for, although there would be an increase of 10s. in the price, yet there would be a diminution of 19s. in the duty; the duty at 70s. being one shilling-and thus we should be again subjected to those irregular jerks and convulsions, which the right hon. Secretary was desirous to avoid. It was preferable, in his opinion, to adopt the principle of feeding the market by holding out inducement of regular supply to the foreign grower, and thereby securing that which was most desirable steadiness of price. Now, as to the averages from which so much good was contemplated by taking them weekly, he confessed he had great doubt if there would not be as much, or even greater, temptation to fraud, from taking them weekly, than from taking them quarterly. If the averages were to be struck weekly, so that the averages of one week were to regulate the averages of the next, it should be considered, that it was easier to effect a fraud at a short notice than at a long one. If, for instance, a party entered into a conspiracy to import six hundred thousand quarters of wheat (the averages of one week being 60s.), and if by purchases at home he were to raise the averages of the next week to 65s., this importation gives him a profit of 300,0001. This fraud was much more easily effected when the averages were taken weekly, than if taken quarterly.—He would now refer to the resolutions proposed by the right hon. gentleman, and those which he had moved by way of amendment, and he would show that his were not at all inconsistent with the principle which the right hon. gentleman had laid down. He fully concurred in the opinion, that a fixed duty would be desirable where it could be established; but he doubted its applicability to the prices at which it was proposed to place it. The high prices at which it became fixed were those which corn rarely attained, and the low price at which it was again to be fixed, were those to which it seldom descended. To do away with any ground of clamour at either end, he would propose, that when corn rose to 50s., and under 51s., the duty should be 20s., instead of fixing that duty at 60s. as was proposed by the right hon. gentleman. He would then have the duty decreased 2s. for every 1s. which the price rose above 50s.; and increased 2s. for every 1s. it descended below it; and whenever the price rose to 55s. and did not exceed 65s., he would have a fixed duty of 10s. This, he thought, would go, in a great degree, to remedy the defect in the resolutions of the right hon. gentleman, and would prevent that great fluctuation of prices, against which those resolutions did not sufficiently guard. Supposing wheat to be at 55s. with an import duty of 10s., he would be prepared to contend, that at that price there could be no importation at all injurious to the British agriculturist. In proof of this position, he would refer the committee to the returns of the amount of corn imports from the year 1773 to 1815, from which it would appear, that in no one year, with the price as low as 60s., had the quantity of wheat imported exceeded six hundred thousand quarters. At higher prices, no doubt, the importation was greater; for instance in the years 1800 and 1801, which were years of great scarcity. With the exception of those years (his reasons for omitting which would be evident), it would appear that, from the year 1795 to the year 1805, with the price at 63s., the importation did not exceed four hundred and eighty thousand quarters. With the experience, then, of those years before him, he was fully justified in contending that, with corn at 55s. and an import duty of 10s. there could not be any amount of foreign wheat imported, which would be injurious to the British agriculturists; that all the alarm existing on that ground would be found wholly illusory, and that the fears of those who believed that the effect would be to throw all the poor lands out of cultivation, would turn out to be equally unfounded. This led him to another and a most important part of the argument. It was said that, if we imported even so small a quantity of foreign wheat as six hundred thousand quarters, it would displace so much British corn, and by that means materially lessen the value of the whole. This argument was founded on the assumption, that our own home stock was fully equal to all the demands of our market. He very much doubted whether that was the case. True it was, that since 1820 we had a very slight addition to our home stock from foreign importation, except what was some short time back let out of bond, and the small quantity which we got from Canada. But, then it should be remembered that we had, up to that time, a stock on hand, which was generally equal to three months' consumption. Let the committee consider what had taken place since 1820. From that year to the year 1823, the price continued to decline; so much so that almost all who had speculated in corn from autumn to spring, and from spring to autumn, lost considerably. Those losses continued, and were so heavy, that at length all speculation ceased; and when it was announced to be the intention of government to make an alteration in the Corn-laws, no person who could get rid of it would hold corn; and he believed it would be found, that there never was a smaller quantity on hand than at the present moment. He should be told that this was an old story, and that he had said the same thing in 1825 and 1826. He had said so; and his opinion, which was still unaltered upon the subject, was, he contended, borne out by the facts. He now repeated what he had said in 1825 and 1826; and maintained, that if, unfortunately, the same system of Corn-laws, or one approaching to it was continued, we should find ourselves in difficulties from which it would be very difficult to escape. He knew that his forebodings on this subject had been laughed at; but, though it was found convenient to laugh at them on a former occasion, those who did so had been since glad to avail themselves of a measure, which added to the home stock, by importations from Canada, and by taking some foreign corn out of bond: and, but for that measure, we should have been compelled to open the ports. Then, if what he had said in 1825 and 1826 was true, it was equally so in 1827; for, though the last harvest was in wheat a fair crop, it was in other kinds of corn much below an average crop. The wheat of the last harvest was in a dry state, and sooner fit for use than for several years; we began our consumption of it much earlier than usual; and we were now going hard upon our stock. He did not say this with the view of exciting any alarm; but he thought it was best to look at once to the real state in which we were placed with respect to the amount of our stock on hand. He would not assert that that stock might not be found sufficient, if consumption were to proceed upon its present scale; but if our trade and manufactures should be so much improved as to increase that consumption in any great degree, and if the next harvest should fall even a little below the last, we should find ourselves in a state which could not be contemplated without considerable alarm. Should such a state of things arrive, it would be found that the stock of foreign corn imported at 60s. or 65s. would be but small; and that it would get as high as 70s. before any quantity came in, large enough to give a sensible relief to the market. He would now say a few words to remove what were urged as some of the popular objections to the view which he took of this question. Great alarm, he knew, had been excited in some minds, by the quantity of corn which it was thought might be imported from Odessa. Great stress, he knew, had been laid upon an assertion, that wheat might recently have been purchased, and that it was, in fact, purchased there at 7s. the quarter. He would state a few facts connected with this subject. The wheat which was thus mentioned was wheat that had been long kept. It was quite an inferior quality, and wholly unfit for the English market. There was a transaction now going on, which would show how unreasonable were any alarms of the landed interest, on the score of what could be procured from Odessa. One individual-(not one of those who was formerly engaged in the importations of corn from Odessa, the greater part of which, on its arrival in this country, had been found wholly unfit for |
