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which had been advocated by such publications. Many of the arguments urged against the land-owners had his most decided disapprobation. But at the same time it was a little too much to say, that the landlord should have for his corn in this country, more than double the price at which corn could be procured abroad. They were entitled to adequate protection; but any thing beyond this would be most unjust to all other classes of the community, and a gross iniquity. In the course of his examination into this subject, he had found that from the year 1775 we had been an exporting country; that was, sometimes importing, but as often exporting, up to 1793. In the two years, 1779 and 1780, when the average price of wheat was 45s., there were 222,000 quarters of wheat exported, and 45,000 quarters imported. It followed, then, that with all the populousness and fertility of foreign countries, and the boasted wretchedness of the half-fed swarms of Polish peasants, it was found to be a profitable speculation for a merchant to buy our corn at 45s., and sell it abroad at between 45s. and 50s. He could not help, with these facts before him, looking with some suspicion at the accounts furnished by our consuls abroad, as to the price of wheat at Rotterdam, for example. It appeared from those accounts, that there was a difference of 12s. per quarter, between the price of wheat at Dort and at Rotterdam, a few hours distance only by canal. In 1811 there was a difference of 63s. and 66s. ; in 1812, a difference of 70s. and 79s. These things surprised him; and he, therefore, went back to the fact of our exportations in 1779, when the price abroad must have been higher than here. The present low prices abroad must have arisen from a glut, and not from the natural course of things. He could explain this subject to the com

state that the practice was, when a bill passed the House of Commons, to appoint some member of that House to carry it to the other House. The member who carried it up mentioned the passing of the bill in the Commons, and desire their lordships' concurrence; but when the bill which was now in contemplation for carrying into effect the new system should be presented in the other House, with a request that they would concur in it, the reply might be, "No, we will not concur in it; we have an inquiry pending on the subject; and, if you will please to come to us at the end of next session, when our inquiries may, perhaps, be terminated, then we will inform you whether we shall concur or not." He had no hesitation in saying, that proper protection ought to be given to the agricultural interests; but while he admitted that, he begged of the agriculturist to recollect that they were not entitled to any undue advantages to the prejudice of the other interests of the community. To protect the agriculture of this country was just and necessary. The farmers of this country, under all the circumstances in which they were placed, could not produce corn at the same price which formed a remuneration to the foreign grower. Upon this ground, he was perfectly ready to allow the agriculturists that extraordinary protection which their extraordinary circumstances required. He was willing that, in consideration of the heavy burthens to which they were subjected, they should have an equivalent protection: but, beyond that point of equivalent protection he could not advance in their favour a single step. When any person proposed to go beyond this in support of the agricultural interests he acted in a manner as extravagant as it was unjustifiable. It was a mockery of all reason and common sense to say, that the agriculturists ought to have any thing be-mittee-[No, no]. The hon. and learned yond what was a fair and just protection. member then proceeded to show that the When the restriction on the importation probable prices abroad would seem to of foreign corn went beyond its proper render any restrictive laws regarding the medium, it ceased to be a protection, and importation of foreign corn unnecessary; became a most unjust and invidious tax, but the House manifested much impatience in favour of the landlords, upon all other by coughing, and at length the noise classes of the community. Now, it had throughout the House occasioned a total been stated, that wheat was selling in interruption to the hon. and learned memforeign ports at the price of 30s. per ber's speech. On its subsiding, he said, quarter, and some reasoning had been that he did not think that, upon so imfounded on this fact by certain publica-portant a subject as this, it was decorous tions. He certainly did not mean to go that it should go forth to-morrow to the the length of some of the propositions world that interruption like this had been

given; it would not be consolatory to the hungry multitude, nor was it creditable to the House, or likely to add to the reputation of a new parliament, that a vital question like the present should be clamorously prevented from being discussed. If, in the only stage he could have an opportunity of expressing his sentiments, there was a rooted determination on the part of some gentlemen in the House[Here the noise from both sides rendered the conclusion of the sentence inaudible.] he hoped he was mistaken. The fault might be his he might have discussed the question in a tedious and tiresome manner: he would much rather that he should bear the reproach, than that it should appear that there was an attempt to clamour down a speaker for the sentiments he expressed. He parted now with the question with pleasure; he entertained a charitable feeling towards those who opposed him: they were only prejudiced; though their prejudices were not easily overcome. He could not help taking that opportunity of declaring his hearty concurrence in the principles of commercial reform which the government had recently entered upon. Step by step he approved of them; and the more so, because they were gradual-for, first, he thought it best not to scare the minds of those abruptly, who felt themselves likely to be affected by new changes; and, secondly, because he thought it not the surest way to succeed, to take too large a stride at the outset; for if the step were wrong, there was less of mischief to repair, or of error to retrace, in effecting any alteration—and it was not exactly wise, abruptly to place great interests in jeopardy. It was under this impression that he had acted respecting parliamentary reform, and had thereby obtained from some quarters the epithet of being a friend to mock reform only. In all improvements of this nature, even in that very worst of all cases, the amelioration of what were called the courts of equity, he was for proceeding systematically and gradually, because he thought that mode afforded the best chance of ultimate success [Cries of "question"]. He really hoped that the gentlemen who interrupted him would abstain from further impediments: the effort would only affect themselves, and bring on colds and coughs tomorrow, from unnecessary exhaustion. He would tell those self-sufficient members, that it was of no use to press the

government to commit themselves with the country upon this question; for really if ministers were desirous of favouring such a project, the people would not bear it; they would not permit such a sacrifice to the landed interest. At all events, he saw nothing in the principle of the present plan, differing, as he did, from the proposers of it as to some of the details, which did not entitle it to public support.

Mr. Secretary Canning rose merely to offer a few words of consolation to the hon. and learned gentleman, for his apprehension of a change of policy elsewhere upon this measure. the hon. and learned gentleman, not of his own knowledge certainly, but from the information of others, which he thought was equally as good, that the appointment of the committee to which he alluded elsewhere, was not a sudden concession, but an old understanding admitted by the noble earl who had the charge of this question, on this express understanding, however, that the committee was not to be protracted, so as to interfere with the legislative provisions of the contemplated bill. In fact, there existed a perfect understanding, that the main progress of the measure was not thereby to be impeded.

He could venture to assure

The committee divided: For the amendment 160; for the original Resolution 229; majority 69. The chairman then reported progress, and asked leave to sit again.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, March 9.

ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS.] After sundry petitions had been presented in favour of the Claims of the Roman Catholics,

The Marquis of Lansdown rose for the purpose of making a motion, which might be considered as a motion upon a motion, concerning the Catholic Claims, under which he thought he should be justified— both with respect to what was due to his own feelings, and to his own honour, as well as to the honour and feelings of many other noble lords, with whom he had thought right to communicate upon the subject-if he trespassed for a few moments upon their lordships' indulgence. At the time that he gave the notice, which stood in the order book for the 15th instant, it was with the deliberate intention to offer to their lordships' considera

tion a resolution upon the subject of the petitions which had just now been presented, and of many others which had previously been presented, upon the important subject of the Roman Catholic disabilities; and if he had now been induced to abandon that intention, he must state to their lordships, that he did so with a mind perfectly satisfied as to the expediency and necessity of considering those disabilities; and with a mind perfectly unchanged, that at some period, and certainly at no distant period, they must meet with the most serious consideration of that House. But, with that strong conviction on his mind, he could not, upon due consideration, allow any precipitate step on his part, at that moment, to have the possible effect of creating or adding to the distressing, the disheartening conviction on the minds of the people of Ireland, that a majority of both Houses of Parliament was determined to reject the consideration of their claims. He felt too deeply what the effect of such a step must be, to add to the irritation upon the subject which already existed, and he should refrain from taking any step that could by possibility have that effect. Whether, after moving that the present order be discharged, he should be again induced, in this or in any other session, to press the subject upon the consideration of the House, he did not at present feel himself bound to state. Whether those petitioners who had stated their case to their lordships would ever come again to the bar of that House, he could not tell; because he possessed no knowledge of their councils, nor had he had any other communication with them than that of receiving their petitions. But he could not dispose of the subject without stating his firm conviction, that whoever might bring forward the subject, it must, in some shape or form, and at no distant period, press itself upon the consideration of that House; but in what shape or form, or under what possible circumstances, he would not venture to predict he would not even give himself the pain of conjecture. But, quitting this subject for the present, he besought their fordships to consider well the condition in which they left Ireland, not upon the allegations of the friends of that proceeding which he was about to withdraw from their lordships' attention, but upon the admissions of its opponents; and he begged leave to say, that if he wanted any other

argument to increase the weight of his assertions, that the state of that country must be altered before it could become a source of strength and prosperity, what he had recently heard from the opponents of that proceeding, with respect to the state of Ireland would furnish the best he could desire; because he knew from experience, that a country and a state of society so distracted as Ireland was alleged to be, was one which could never be expected to right itself without the serious attention of the legislature; because he knew that a small majority in the other House of Parliament, producing a decision upon the question, would not be able to allay those passions, or to appease those feelings, which were common to human nature. It was impossible that any vote could put an end to those distracted relations of society, which rose as manifestly and directly out of the state of the existing laws, as the grass rose out of the earth, in consequence of the seed put into it. He did not suppose that any vote would immediately teach the increasing population to bear with satisfaction the privations of the greatest blessings; or that it would teach individuals rising in wisdom and knowledge, to strip themselves of the best advantages, and to treat the best objects of ambition with contempt: that it would teach the growing population to bear, without a murmur, that stamp of degradation which was placed upon them by the existing law. These were feelings that could never be expected to arise from any decision of the two Houses of Parliament. The hand of a man had, by a miracle, been enabled to stop the course of the sun; but the hands of their lordships would never be able, without a miracle, to dispel and arrest the progress of those principles in human nature, which the same God that made the sun had planted in the breast of mankind. He, therefore, was satisfied, that this question must come, in some state or other, again and again before their lordships; and, in the mean time, he besought their lordships, both individually and as a body, to ponder well upon the state in which they left Ireland; because he must say, and he did so with the most perfect sincerity, that could he conceive himself placed in the unfortunate condition of assisting in the councils of any government hostile to and conflicting with the interest, and aiming at the prosperity, of his country, the first prayer he

the oftener that question was discussed, the more impossible would it appear to their lordships, to give to persons professing the Roman Catholic faith, perfect and full enjoyment of their civil rights; or to allow them to fill situations of high political trust.

The order was accordingly discharged.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Friday, March 9.

POOR LAWS IN IRELAND.] Sir N. Colthurst said, he had some Petitions to present, to which he must beg to call the attention of the House. In the month of August, very considerable distress prevailed among the labouring classes in the city of Cork, and a public meeting was held for the purpose of devising some measure for their relief. It was numerously and respectably attended; and, after a subscription had been entered into for the immediate relief of the distress, a long and

should offer up to Fortune would be"Give me Ireland as she is, with a great increasing population, who had no other leaders than persons to whom no fortune was accessible but in a direction opposite to the interests of the state-with a population at the same time under the influence of a clergy alienated by the state, re'jected by the state, and in no degree, however remotely, connected with the state, and more than that, openly denounced by the authorities of the state, as faithless, and not to be believed;-with a population that was deprived of the conductors between the high authorities of the state and the lowest members of society, which the experience of all countries had shown to be indispensable for preserving the strength and harmony of the whole." That was the state in which their lordships had left Ireland. He besought their lordships also to recollect that when the time should arrive, if unhappily it should arrive before they had given their attention to the consideration of the Roman Catho-animated discussion arose as to the best lic disabilities, in which they would be called upon to place in array the resources of this country against the resources of any other nation, they would probably have to put them in array against a country in which no corresponding disabilities existed, and in which Catholic and Protestant enjoyed the same privileges. He begged their lordships to reflect upon the consequences of such a state of things; for he could not permit himself to give utterance to all the melancholy anticipations which arose out of the subject. He had no wish, or regret, connected with this question, but what related to the interest and prosperity of the country. His only wish was, that those who had taken upon themselves the heavy responsibility of negativing the hopes and desires of millions, might be enabled to suggest such measures as would restore that tranquillity which was admitted to be wanting, and appease that distraction which they themselves had stated to exist; and his only regret was, that they had not hitherto been induced to state the means by which they hoped to effect those objects. He should now move, that the order be discharged.

The Earl of Winchelsea sincerely regretted that the noble marquis had abandoned his intention of bringing before their lordships the consideration of that great political question, the claims of the Roman Catholics; because he felt convinced, that

means of preventing a recurrence of it. The result of that discussion was the adoption of the Petition which he now presented, praying the House to consider the expediency of introducing into Ireland a modified system of Poor-laws. This decision of the meeting, however, was so far from giving general satisfaction, that it created very considerable alarm among the inhabitants of Cork, and meetings were held in all the parishes, at which petitions were adopted, praying the House not to sanction the introduction of the Poor-laws, should such a measure be proposed. These petitions he begged also to present to the House. From the best opinion he could form of the subject, the introduction of the Poor-laws into Ireland would be a most dangerous experiment; and, under all the circumstances of that country, unsuited to it.

Mr. H. Grattan expressed himself strongly in favour of a modified system of Poor-laws.

Mr. Monck supported the prayer of the Petition. He thought this as much an English as an Irish question. The county of Berks, during the last year, paid no less than 1,000l. for passing Irish vagrants on their way from Bristol to London. In the time of Queen Elizabeth, it was on record, that the population of England produced a race of mendicants, half paupers and half marauders, somewhat similar to those

who now infested Ireland; but in that reign
those laws were enacted under which the pre-
sent system of Poor-laws was supported;
and at that period the miseries and crimes
attendant upon a state of mendicity had
become almost unknown. In Ireland,
previous to the Union, some attempts had
been made to introduce a similar system,
and particularly by an act which pro-
vided, that a penitentiary and asylum, to
serve as a Bridewell, and a workhouse
should be erected in every county. This
act had, unfortunately, except in one or
two instances, in Limerick and Waterford,
remained almost a dead letter; and the
benefits which might have accrued from
it were consequently lost. In fact, it ap-
peared, that in that unhappy country, the
laws which related to the rich were exe-
cuted with all attention and severity,
while those relating to the poor were
wholly neglected. In his opinion, there
ought to be some power given to the party
to exact from the Irish gentry and absen-
the landlords, a provision for their poor
countrymen. They received in the present
corn bill, a valuable consideration, for
which they, in fact, gave nothing; and he
conceived that strict justice required them
to relieve this country from the burthens im-
posed upon them by the Irish poor, through
the means of some contributions, whether
voluntary or forced, to their support at
home. He was quite sure, that if the
clergy of Ireland at all resembled the
clergy of England, they would willingly
give a fair proportion of their tithes to-poor-laws into that country.
wards the maintenance of the poor; and
he must again express his earnest hope,
that this session would not pass over with-
out some provision being made on this
subject.

and suffering so much from all kinds of
misrule. He had no disposition to speak
ill of his countrymen; but he felt that
the majority of its poor had a propensity
beyond the people of almost any other
country, to live without labour. A system
of provision like the English poor-laws,
would have the effect of encouraging that
propensity to a great extent; for, if it was
once held out to them, that they could
live, under any circumstances without la-
bour, he was convinced that no labour
would be done. This was not the proper
time to enter upon the question; he would
only, therefore, observe, that any system
of parochial assessment, to be distributed
under the authority of those who could,
under the present state of Ireland, be
found in these parishes, would be produc-
tive of great evil, and lead to fraud and
delusion. The question was one, however,
of considerable importance; and he would
be happy to have it ascertained, whether
or not the system of English poor-laws
might not be beneficially applied to some
parts of Ireland, where greater means were
afforded of having its provisions faithfully
executed.

Sir John Newport said, he was convinced, that the application of the poor-laws to Ireland would be attended with greater evils to that country, and produce greater want and misery than that which it at present suffered. In the district where he resided, there was not, for the space of eleven miles, a single individual to whom the duties attendant upon the administration of any part of a system of poor-laws could with safety be confided. Even in those parts where the country might be more thickly peopled, and the persons fit for the offices more numerous, he feared that they were not sufficiently so to prevent a system of jobbing which must be extremely pernicious in a country so poor,

Mr. G. Dawson said, that whenever the poor-laws were mentioned in that House, he could not omit any opportunity of raising his voice against the introduction of them into Ireland. The right hon. baronet had justly represented the state of society in Ireland, and the consequence which would result from introducing the

Whatever

sums were raised by county assessments, parish-rates were levied upon the occupying tenants, and to suppose, therefore, that absentees would be affected by it was a perfect delusion. Such great landholders as the duke of Devonshire and lord Fitzwilliam, would not pay a sixpence. It would all fall upon their tenants; and thus it

would happen, that not the aged and infirm, but the idle and vicious, would be enabled to live on the earnings of the industrious.

Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald said, that as he had given notice of a motion connected with this subject, he would not trouble the House with any observations now. He must, however, say, that the hon. member for Reading had advanced some of the most extraordinary propositions that he had ever heard. He was much obliged to his hon. friend for having told the House, that, on the principles of the

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