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ever, endeavour to follow the hon. mem- matter before the heads of the department ber. In his very first observation there than to lay it before the House of Comwas the greatest inaccuracy. Nothing mons. The hon. member said, that the more surprised him than to hear it boldly heads of departments, while cutting the asserted, that the reduction of the estic salaries of clerks of 90l. per year, bad mates was but 3,0001. He had stated been raisiog their own. Where did the that the estimates were 1,500,000l., and hon. member find that? He had stated the reduction but 3,0001. ; whereas the that the salary of the master-general of estimates amounted to little more than the Ordnance had been raised from 1,5001. 1,300,0001. while the reduction was to 3,0001. a year, and he had argued upon 53,0001. Ex uno disce omnes: if the hon. the impropriety of such an addition at a member could make a mistake of 50,0001. \ time when there should rather be a dein a sum of 1,300,0001. what errors might crease. When the hon. member gave an he not have committed in the long detail account of his own specch to the public, of figures which he had laid before the as he owned to him (Mr. W.) that on a House! What reliance could be placed former occasion he had done, when that upon his statements, unless he quoted for account was most incorrect, there was no them competent authority? The hon. part of England which that speech might member had founded himself in some reach where it would not be supposed measure upon the report of the finance that the duke of Wellington had raised committee. He did not mean to say that his own salary, or that it had been so the hon. member was not entitled, if he raised by his predecessors, lord Mulgrave thought fit, to rely upon the report of or lord 'Chatham; but the fact was very the finance committee: but that report different the salary of the master-general was not binding upon the House; and it was 1,5001. a year, from the reign of was open to opposition from those who Elizabeth to the period of the union with might think that the committee had come Ireland. There was before that period, a to a wrong conclusion. The employ- master-general of the Ordnance in Irement of labourers as servants had been land, but after the union the offices were objected to. It might be an objection- united, the two boards were consolidated, able practice; but it was not an abuse, and the salary doubled. This took place for it was a system which had been acted in the year 1802 [Hear, hear]. He upon for thirty years, and the services of heard the hon. gentleman cry, hear!" a labourer now formed by usage part of Why, then, did he not state this, and not the emolument given to an officer. It leave it in such a way as to be misunderhappened, however, that the noble duke stood by half the House ? He had made at the head of the Ordnance department some observations on other parts of the was, up to a certain point, of the same board as to salaries and emoluments; but opinion with the hon. member; he thought did he question the fact, that the emolu. the practice a bad one, and was taking ments and salaries of several officers of measures to abolish it: the advantage the board had been lowered [“ I do," was not taken from those who already from Mr. Hume] ? He would tell him, possessed it; but care was taken not to then, that his own emoluments had been extend it to new comers.-- The speech of reduced from 1,7001. to 1,1001. a year. the hon. member had been so desultory, An hon. friend near him bad suffered a that the House must excuse him if he reduction of 2001. per annum, and there rambled a little in pursuit of it; and he were several other reductions, but no would at once notice that insulated accu- correction of the mistakes of the hon. sation touching the conduct of the store- member could correct his disposition to keeper at Sheerness. The hon. member mis-statement. There was one of those accusing one individual of peculation, mis-statements in the newspapers, where argued with his usual candour, that such it was said that he (Mr. W.) denied that was the general practice of the depart-the storekeeeper of Dover had a salary of ment. As to the fact, he (Mr. W.) knew 5001. a year. He never denied it. He nothing. If it were proved, the 'indivi- stated that the storekeeper had not redual, besides losing his situation, would tired, but never denied the salary of 5001. certainly be punished in a way which a year. The mis-statement had appeared would not be agreeable to him. But in “ The Times.” This arose from the it might be doubted, whether it would incorrectness of the hon. gentleman himnot have been more fit to bring such a self. He alleged that a storekeeper VOL. IV.

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who had not 1001. a year, had been had not the allowances given to officers allowed to retire upon the enormous belonging to the regular corps; in lieu of salary of 5001. He had met the hon. these exira pay was given them, and he member soon after that statement ap- could assure the House that they compeared, and said to him, that there was a plained of this as too small. If the estimistake in a newspaper respecting what mates were strictly examined, a full exhe stated, and added, " You have nothing planation would be found in them of to do with it, for it is false ;” but he was many of the points to which the hon. much surprised when the hon. gentleman member had adveried. One point he answered, “ I am sorry for it, for I wrote would concede: he would have no objecit myself.” He now requested, if the tion to the production of the Expense editor or writer of The Times was in the ledger every year. The next subject to gallery, that he would do him justice, for which allusion had been made, was to the he could not expect it from the hon. officers on half-pay. On this subject he member. The right hon. gentleman then could assure the House, that selections went on to contend that every disposition were made from the half-pay for high sito economy was felt in the Ordnance de cuations, and that only subordinate ones partment. The duke of Wellington had were filled up by cadets. As to the proabolished sixty-eight offices,--the salaries fessors, there could be no objection to any attached to which amounted to 14,0001. information respecting them. He would a year. Even the situation of adjutanto admit that the expense of the Dublin esgeneral at Gibraltar, which had been tablishment appeared larger than that at sought after by men entitled to it from Woolwich, but that was explained by this their character and length of service, had circumstance, that under this head were been abolished. With respect to the included several other branches which gratuities complained of, he had the same were not brought into the accounts of the answer which he had applied to the com- Woolwich expenditure. As to Sheerness, plaint as to servants. At all events it it was true that the expense was increased; was not an abusc. The system might be but this arose from a great part of the objectionable, though that he denied; business which was before done at for it was the only mode by which the Chatham being about to be transferred officers of the Ordnance department could thither. As to the establishment at St. be placed upon a level with officers of John's-wood, he would state what that equal rank in the Navy office and in the was. During the war it was considered War-office; but it could not be an abuse, necessary to have a brigade of cavalry because it was an acknowledged and a there. The barracks for them were taken recognised practice. The addition to the for a long lease, it not being thought that salary of the secretary to the master the battle of Waterloo would so soon general, had been made by the reduction have rendered the lease unnecessary; that of a second secretaryship, and without barrack was still on hand, and one person costing the country a shilling. The was kept to take care of it. It was kept powder-works at Feversham were carried because the lease was unexpired, and he on at present, because it was found that could assure the hon. gentleman that he it would be cheaper to carry on the works might have it cheap if he were disposed to for a few

years, than to incur the expense take it off the hands of government at of removing the vast quantity of stores present. The establishment at Trincowhich the depôt contained. From the malce, he observed, was kept in consestatement of the hon. gentleman one quence of its being considered necessary would have supposed that the sum of for the assistance of the navy. He de270,0001. was expended in repairs; but nied that any clerks were allowed to upon a survey of the estimates, it would retire on a full salary, after a short serbe found that the whole sum so expended, vice. He could not then confidently say in which many payments to superintend that there were not any who retired on ing officers were included, did not exceed full pay; but this he could state, that all 80,0001. So much for the candid accu- who were reduced were allowed a portion racy of the hon. gentleman's statement ! of their salary; but he challenged the The hon. gentleman had adverted to the hon. member to produce an instance pay of the engineer officers; but it would where any clerk was allowed to retire on be necessary to take into account, that full pay after four

service. The those officers were not in barrack, and hon. gentleman had said, that there was

years

an expense of 500l. incurred for what was might be cut off, he was rather astonished called taking returns of stores. This, that the expense was so low as it was. however, was grossly incorrect. The

Sir R. Fergusson expressed his surprise, fact was, that when a storekeeper was that the right hon. gentleman had left unchanged, he gave in an account of the touched the principal argument—which stores which had been under his charge, was, the increase of salaries to the clerks which account was checked by that of a and other officers. person employed to inspect the stores. Sir H. Parnell contended, that the This could not be done by the person so speech of his hon. friend had been left changed, and therefore it was deemed unanswered. Without entering into any most expedient to send a person from detail, he would read an extract from the London for the purpose. How the hon. 6th report of the Committee of finance. member could call this giving a man 5001. The report stated, that “ of late years a for taking returns of old stores, he was at system of progressive increase of salaries a loss to conceive. He protested against had been extended to most of the public the whole of the hon. member's statement, officers; but in the Ordnance department, and would leave it to any unprejudiced this was carried to the greatest length." man, to state whether he had been fairly | This, he contended, was sufficient to contreated in being thus brought to argue vince the House of the fallacy of the right upon the estimates of several years with hon. gentleman's speech. out any documents, or any preparation The House divided : Ayes 44. Noes whatever. It was true that he had cona 58. Majority against Mr. Hume's mosented to the notice of motion, but he tion 14. had been unfairly treated by being thus trepanned into such a discussion without

List of the Minority. preparation. Before he sat down he Becher, W. W. Hutchinson, hon.C.H. wished to make one other observation. Benett, J.

Langton, J. H. If the hon. member wished to draw Bennet, hon, H. G. Lennard, T. B. comparison between the Ordnance esti- Benyon, B.

Macdonald, Jas. mates of the present year and those of Bernal, R.

Martin, J: 1793, he should have taken it into his

Bright, R.

Monck, J. B. consideration that the prices of things Browne, Dom.

Brougham, H. Newport, sir J. had doubled that the number of the ar- Caulfield,

hon. H.

Nugent, lord

Parnell, sir H. tillery had been doubled--that the pay of Creevey, Thos. Ricardo, D. the men had been more than doubled. Denison, Jos. Rice, hon. G. The hon. member might quarrel with the Evans, Wm. Robarts, A. increase of men, if he pleased, but he had Fergusson, sir R. Robarts, G. J. no right to say, that with a double num

Fitzgerald, right hon. Sefton, earl of
M.

Sykes, D.
ber of troops the expense ought to con-
tinue the same.

Glenorchy, lord Talbot, R. W. He ought to recollect that the union with Ireland cast an addi- Graham, s.

Gordon, R.

Taylor, M. A.

Tremayne, J. H. tional expense of 130,0001. a year on the Grenfell, P.

Whitmore, W. W. Ordnance department of this country: Guise, sir W. Williams, W. He forgot the improvements which bad Harbord, hon. E. Wyvill, M. been made in our artillery service. He Heron, sir R. forgot that the arms now used in the Ord. Hill, lord A.

Hume, J. nance department differed widely from Hobhouse, J. C. Folkestone, visc. those used when the estimates were 400,000l. a year. He forgot, too, the in

HOUSE OF LORDS. troduction of the horse artillery, and of the driver corps, the latter of which had

Monday, February 19. been properly called by the hon, member NAPLES-CONDUCT OF THE ALLIED for Shrewsbury the sinews of war. The PowerS.] Earl Grey rose, in pursuance hon, member had omitted to notice all of his notice, to move for such further inthese, which if deducted from the excess formation as was necessary to obtain a of the present establishment above the view of all the circumstances by which expense of 1793, would leave a very little their lordships might be enabled to form difference. Considering these circum. a correct judgmeut of the conduct of his stances, and the increase in our colonies, majesty's ministers relative to Naples. though he might admit that some things The recent changes which had taken

TELLERS.

place in that government were such as formation ; and, in doing so, he thought must appear of great importance to every it necessary to trouble their lordships with person who looked at political events with some observations on the note of the a view to their effects on the general in- allied sovereigns, and on the paper in terests of this country and of mankind. reply to it which the noble lord had laid It had been obvious that, from the very on the table of the House. After the disfirst, the events to which he alluded had claimer of his, majesty's ministers, cold excited a hostile feeling in that Alliance, and feeble as it was, that the claim of inwhich, notwithstanding that it assumed terference set up by the allied powers to itself the epithet of Holy, had mani- was one which could not be admitted, as fested views calculated to alarm every being contrary to all the principles of infriend of freedom. From the first, the ternational law, it might perhaps be intentions of that confederacy had been thought unnecessary for him to say any the cause of much anxiety all over Eu- thing on that subject. He could not, rope; and that anxiety was more particu. however, help noticing the remarkable larly manifested in this country, from the principle asserted in the paper published desire which naturally existed to know in the “ Hamburgh Correspondent" in what part would be taken by his majesty's December last, as the circular of the ministers, when designs hostile to every allied powers. The claim set up was noprinciple of national law, appeared to be thing less than the right of a general sumeditated. Impressed with these feel- perintendence of the states of Europe, ings, he had, on the first day of the ses, and of the suppression of all changes in sion availed himself of the earliest oppor- their internal government, if those changes tunity afforded him to direct the attention should be hostile to what the Holy Alliof their lordships to this important sub. ance called the legitimate principles of ject; and on a subsequent day he had government. It mattered not how geneinquired whether the representation issued ral the wish of the people for the change by the allied courts on the subject of the might be; it mattered not, however inofNeapolitan revolution did correctly and fensive that change might be to other truly state the disposition and engage- states; it mattered not that every people ments of his majesty's government with were acknowledged to possess the right respect to such events as those which had of correcting the abuses of their governtaken place. The answer given on that ment, and rescuing themselves from polioccasion by the noble earl opposite ap-tical degradation. Yet those monarchs peared to be in a great degree satisfactory. who had assunsed the censorship of EuHe had said, that the document which rope, and sat in judgment on the internal had appeared in the public papers, though transactions of other states, took upon substantially true, was in some respect themselves to summon before them the not correct. He disclaimed the engage- monarch of an independent state; to proments to which it was therein stated that nounce judgment on a constitution which, this government was a party; and he dis- in concert with his people, he had given claimed the principle of interference with to his country, and threatened to enforce the internal arrangements of independent their judgment by arms.

This was states-stating, what every one would ad- plainly declaring that all changes of gomit, that circumstances might arise by vernment which did not square with their which such interference would be justi- ideas of propriety were to be put down. fied. The noble earl then proposed to Nothing could be more unjust, nothing lay before the House a document, con- more atrocious, than this principle. This taining a full explanation of the conduct was, however, the fair construction of the pursued by his majesty's government. principle on which the sovereigns com

That paper had, in conformity with the posing the Holy Alliance declared they noble earl's promise, been laid before would act. But this was not the first their lordships; and it was now for him time that principle had been asserted: if to regret that, after perusing it, he had their lordships' attention had been di. not obtained from it that satisfaction as rected to what had been passing on the to the conduct of his majesty's govern- continent, they must have perceived the ment which he expected it would have same principle advanced in papers which afforded. He felt himself, therefore, had previously been issued by the allied bound to propose that their lordships powers. If they looked at the Note ou should address his majesty for further in- ihe subject of the German constitutions, presented by prince Metternich to the opposition to the despotic principles of minister of Baden-that baron Berstett, that wicked confederacy was of so late a of whom their lordships had recently date as the 19th of January last? Was heard so much-they would see the same not the note of prince Metternich to principle laid down. They would also baron Berstett, to which he had alluded, find it in the Memorial of the court of known to ministers ? Were they ignorant Russia on the transactions in Spain, and of the memorial of the court of Russia on it was above all, most unequivocally and the affairs of Spain ? And, finally, were intelligibly propounded in the Berlin they ignorant of the article which had Court Gazette” of the 19th December, appeared in the Berlin Gazette ?

He though the paper which appeared in that must say it appeared most clearly, that gazette had no official signature ; yet the principles on which the allied sovewhen their lordships considered the state reigns meant to act could not fail to have of the press in Prussia, when they knew been known to his majesty's ministers at a that every publication took place under very early period, and long before the the control of a strict censorship, it was paper issued from Troppau, to which the impossible not to regard that document declaration of the 19th of January reas published by authority, and as express- plied. Now, either they did remonstrate ing the opinions and the views of the or they did not. If they did, what then, Prussian government. The gazette states, he would ask, had become of the boasted that there could be no communication authority of this country in the councils between the allied powers and the govern- of Europe, when not only that authority ment of Naples, because it is asserted that was disregarded, but the consent of this such communication would be, to recog- country to the measures of the sovereigns nize the legality of insurrection. The was presumed? If they did not remonnew constitution was declared to be the strate, then what punishment could be product of unlawful power, and it was sufficiently severe for a dereliction of duty distinctly stated that the monarchical calculated to inflict so much evil on this principle rejects every institution which country and the world in general? On is not determined upon and accomplished these points he demanded explanation. by the monarch himself of his own free He begged their lordships to advert to the will.” This article in the Berlin Gazette date of that paper which had been laid appeared to be published for the purpose before the House. It was dated the 19th of clearly expounding the principle which of January, only four days previous to the had been more or less distinctly asserted meeting of parliament. It had been said in all the notes of the holy alliance pub- that the paper transmitted from Troppau lished on the late events in Spain, Portu. was not intended for publication, and gal, and Naples, and it went plainly to that it came upon them by surprise. At establish, that no change of government least so he had understood the noble earl ; was to be permitted which appeared con- but at any rate the principle by which trary to what was called the monarchical the allied sovereigns had signified they principle”--that was to say, every reform would be guided, was known long before, of abuses, every improvement in govern- and the moment the assertion of that ment, which did not originate with a so- principle was known, it became the duty vereign, of his own free will, was to be of the British government to remonstrate. prevented. Were this principle to be But nothing was done by ministers until successfully maintained, 'the triumph of within a few days of the assembling of tyranny would be complete, and the parliament. It appeared, therefore, that chains of mankind would be rivetted for their declaration was issued rather to

Was there, then, to be no improve- meet discussions which they knew were ment in government except such as was unavoidable, and to cover a concert granted as a matter of favour? Hope- which they dared not openly avow, than less, indeed, was the condition of the to operate in any manner on the decisions human race, if they were to obtain no of the allied powers. When the confepolitical rights except such as spring from deracy was directing an attack against the benevolence of sovereigns of the Naples, what was the conduct of ministers monarchs who composed the holy alliance. towards those powers? They continued

And now he would ask, how did it in the closest union and harmony with happen that the first declaration wlich them. But what had been their conduct his majesty's minister had made in to Naples? A suspension of all amicable

ever.

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