had yet to learn the right which that ranks other men might be found, to whom right hon. gentleman, or any other man, the public interests might be confided; had to designate any part of the people for they were satisfied that no set of men, of England as a base and desperate fac- were their faults even as great as their tion. The right hon. gentleman had said, worst enemies imputed to them, could be he had no doubt that the faction which so lost to what was due to themselves and supported the Queen would have been their sovereign, and to the honour and equally ready, under different circum- character of the country, as his majesty's stances, to turn against her. Now, he present ministers. He concluded by decould tell the right hon. gentleman of a claring his hearty concurrence with the faction which actually had done so. That motion of his noble friend, and by saying, faction had made use of the Queen as a that such was his conviction of the unstepping-stone to their own ambition, fitness and unworthiness of the present and then, to use a familiar phrase, had ministers for the situations which they thrown her overboard. When our late held, that he would rather place his consovereign, her steady protector, was suc-fidence in the first ten or twelve men ceeded by an illustrious person, who cer- whom he might accidently meet, than tainly was not her best friend, that faction in them. anxious to recommend themselves to the king, sacrificed the Queen to their own views of ambition, and, with a perfidy perfectly unexampled, they re-examined the identical evidence which they had formerly denounced as blasted, perjured, and infamous, in order to extract from it materials to justify the separation of that illustrious person from her child. The hon. gentleman who spoke last had alluded to the minutes of the order in council; and he (Mr. Bennet) having read the order in council that morning, thought it scarcely possible to apply any language too strong to the conduct of those who, having acquitted her majesty in 1806, afterwards turned round and employed that very evidence against her which they had before declared unworthy of credit. Before he sat down, he wished to say a word or two upon the situation of the country. It was a fact which could not be disguised, that, from one end of the country to the other, wherever the voice of the people could be heard, nothing was heard but the language of complaint and indignation against the conduct of ministers. If, as was contended, the ministers possessed claims to the gratitude of the country for the glorious peace which they had obtained, what must have been their conduct to obliterate those claims from the minds of the people in so short a period of time? The people felt that the ministers had set the property, the honour, and the character of the country on a cast, and that they were such desperate gamesters, that they could no longer be trusted with the conduct of the government. Under such circumstances, the nation was compelled to look round, and inquire in what Mr. Wellesley Pole said, it was not his intention to detain the House long; but, as a member of his majesty's government, he could not sit silent under the charges which, on this and on the last night, had been brought forward against the administration. He felt himself obliged to the noble lord who had brought forward this motion, and to the hon. member who seconded it, for the distinct and candid avowal of their object. Upon a former occasion some doubt might be entertained upon the subject, but it was now fairly avowed, that the great purpose for which this motion was brought forward, was, to effect the dismissal of his majesty's ministers. As to the motion itself, it was a secondary consideration, it was merely a vehicle chosen to produce the desired change, and undoubtedly it was well chosen; because, it would carry with it a stronger force than any other that could have been selected. But the noble lord and the hon. member were not doing any thing new upon this occasion-they were only doing that which they had been doing ever since the present administration had been formed. There was scarcely one of the efficient acts of administration for the last ten years, which the hon. gentlemen opposite had not opposed, and for which they would not have been quite as ready to pass a vote of censure upon ministers, as they were upon the present occasion. It was important that the House should bear this in mind; because, when gentlemen so loudly exclaimed that the conduct of ministers for the last six months deserved all the censure it was now endeavoured to heap on their heads, it was but fair to ask, whether those gentlemen ever en tertained any other opinion, and whether they had not been, at all times, and upon all occasions, equally violent in their opposition, equally loud in their censures, and equally anxious to effect the removal of the present ministers ?-He would ask whether the gentlemen opposite had not held this language even upon occasions when it was quite obvious that the sense of the country was decidedly with ministers? He did not mean of the whole country, because it was certainly true that the present ministers never had the good fortune to possess the confidence, or obtain the approbation of the gentlemen on the other side of the House.-It was not his intention to enter at large into the defence of the conduct of ministers, because the House had already heard that conduct most triumphantly vindicated, and he did not wish to weaken the effect of speeches which must have made a deep impression upon the House; but there were some points that had been urged which he could not pass over without notice. In the course of this debate, some declarations had been made and some doctrines laid down which were quite new to him, and which he believed were equally new to a great majority of that House. It had been stated by the proposers and supporters of this motion, that it was indifferent to them whether it met with the approbation of the House or not-it was immaterial to them whether the ministers possessed the confidence of the House of Commons or not-the confidence which those gentlemen wished to obtain was not that of the House of Commons, but of a certain class of people out of doors, who were always ready to oppose ministers. The opinion of the House of Commons was now, for the first time, declared to be of no importance-it was of no avail that the gentlemen of that House devoted their time and their faculties to the investigation of this great question; their decision was worth nothing in the opinion of the gentlemen on the other side; that is to say, if their decision happened to be in favour of ministers. He had, indeed, on former occasions, heard an honourable baronet deny that they were the representatives of the people; he had heard him call the House of Commons" that Room;" but he never heard or expected to hear it stated in that House, and by the Whigs too, that it was of no importance that the ministers VOL. IV. of the Crown should possess the confidence of the representatives of the people-of the constitutional guardians of their rights. But it was very extraordinary to observe the great vacillation of the Whigs, upon this as well as upon other subjects. He was old enough to remember, that Mr. Fox (whose authority the Whigs would surely not disavow) had most strenuously contended in that House, that the opinions of the people could only be fairly sought, and really found there. The successors of Mr. Fox the Whigs of the present day, maintained directly the reverse of that proposition; they contended, that the opinion of the people could only be found out of doors, and that it was to be sought for from day to day, and from hour to hour. But Mr. Fox not only maintained the opinion which he had just stated, but he was so unwilling that an appeal should be made to the people to know what their opinion was, that he proposed an address to his majesty, praying him not to dissolve parliament. It happened at that time, that the opinion of the people (an opinion not excited by artifice, not inflamed by clamour, not formed in heat, but upon calm deliberation) was adverse to Mr. Fox; an appeal to them was made, parliament was dissolved, Mr. Pitt's power was established, and the Whigs irretrievably defeated. He was sorry that they had not yet remaining amongst thein so much respect for the memory of Mr. Fox as might induce them to say, that the opinion of that House deserved at least to have some weight. He did not mean to say, that they ought to go quite so far as to agree with Mr. Fox, that they should look exclusively to that House; but he thought they might go to the length of looking to it principally, and as the best standard of public feeling. His own conviction was, that no ministry ever did, ever would, or ever should exist one hour, unless it had the confidence of that House, and in the true sense of the words, the confidence of the people. The gentlemen on the other side might say what they pleased, but the feelings of the House of Commons and of the people always were, and necessarily must be, in unison. No ministers who had really lost the confidence of the people could long retain the support of the House of Commons; and this must always be the case as long as the House was constituted as it now was. 2 G He per | and of the country for his abilities, had been driven out of the populous borough of Southwark, and if he had not found réfuge in one of those much-abused boroughs, the leader of the Whigs would not now have a seat in the House of Commons; and yet he was as good a leader of the Whigs as if he sat for the most populous place in the empire. Another hon. and learned gentleman, of whose talents and constitutional knowledge he wished to speak in the highest ternis, was seated for Knaresborough very snug! but if that honourable and learned gentleman were the orator of the human race, if he represented all Europe together, it could not make him a better member of parlia ment. But it was useless to multiply instances; however defective our system was in theory, it was most admirable cal Fectly agreed with an hon. gentleman (Mr. Bankes) that the House, as now constituted, was most efficiently formed to support the interests, to watch over the rights and to protect the liberties of the people. It was true, that, in point of theory, many objections might be made to the construction of the House of Commons; yet, considered in its practical effects, in affording facilities to all classes and descriptions of people to be fairly represented, and to men of talents to obtain seats in that House, he was convinced that it could not be improved by any plan that the wit of man could devise. He felt much pleased with the answer given by the hon. member for Devises on a former occasion, to an observation that he was returned by about twentyfour voters. He replied, that although the number of voters by whom he was re-culated in the practice to bring into that turned was not large, yet, when he once House, the talent, the intelligence, and took his seat in that House, he did not every other requisite that was essential to consider himself merely as the represen- the character of a good member of parliatative of that particular place, but of ment. He could not, therefore, agree the whole kingdom, and that he was as with those who called so loudly for parlia'much bound to watch over the interests, mentary reform: more especially as he and protect the rights, of the inhabitants found, that no two of them agreed upon of every other part of the empire, as over the plan which they would substitute those of his immediate constituents. If instead of the present system. It appearhe wanted examples to prove the practical ed to him much wiser, instead of adoptbenefits that resulted from the construc- ing wild and visionary theories, and tion of the House of Commons, he had making sweeping alterations, to proceed only to cast his eyes opposite to him, and gradually, and when we found a blot, to he should find them in abundance. hit it, and to mend it. hon. and learned gentleman on the other With respect to the question immediately side of the House, of whose brilliant before the House, it would not be necestalents no man could entertain a higher sary for him, after all that had been said, opinion than he did, afforded a most de- to occupy much time. As to what took cisive proof of the advantages resulting place before the Queen came to this counfrom the present system of representa try, it was only necessary to observe, that tion. That learned gentleman had offered if the proposition made to her majesty at himself as a candidate for two or three St. Omer's, deserved any of those hard populous places, but belonging, as he epithets which had been so liberally beunfortunately did, to a most unpopular stowed upon it, the learned gentleman, party, had offered himself in vain. In her majesty's principal legal adviser, Westmoreland he was completely de- would not have been the bearer of it. He feated; in Liverpool he stood no chance; would not now enter into the question and the House would now have to lament who first suggested that proposition; but the loss of his talents, if he had not had when that learned gentleman left this the good fortune to be snugly seated for country as the bearer of it, he knew that one of those boroughs which some of his ministers were in possession of facts that friends around him described as the op- would constitute a grave case against the probrium of our representative system. Queen, and that if her majesty came to That learned gentleman was, though so this country they could not avoid taking returned, as good and efficient a mem further steps. It was quite impossible, ber of parliament, and as sound a therefore, for that learned gentleman to whig, as if he represented Westminster.agree with the hon. gentleman who spoke A right hon. gentleman near him, deserv- last, that the conduct of ministers on that edly high in the estimation of the House occasion was not only unjust, but base. An was first discussed in that House, a right hon. gentleman opposite to him reprobated it in strong language as degrading to the Queen; but the learned gentleman (the Queen's attorney-general) denied that position. He did not consider it as being of any moment whether the Queen' was prayed for by name in the Liturgy or not; in a word, he considered it as a After her majesty had arrived in this country, when his noble friend moved for a committee, he distinctly stated, that he had grave charges against the Queen, The House then knew that ministers were in possession of evidence which, in their opinion, was sufficient to support that charge; and it approved of the ministers pausing in their proceedings, and negotiating with her majesty. The House after-" trifle light as air," compared with what wards approved of the motion made by the hon. member for Bramber. It was evident, then, that ministers, so far from being desirous of bringing forward this investigation, took every means in their power to avoid it; and it was equally clear, that the House approved of their conduct in so doing. He did not expect that the gentlemen on the other side would approve of the conduct of ministers, but the House could not, he thought, withdraw the approbation of that conduct which it had so distinctly given. he called her just rights. What happened afterwards, when a negotiation took place between the noble lord near him, a noble relation of his, and the two learned gentlemen on the other side (the Queen's legal advisers)? Upon that occasion the learned gentleman seemed in doubt whether the omission was legal or not; but he considered it as admitting of an equivalent. Now, if it were an illegal act, it could not admit of an equivalent. In that case, it would have been the duty of the learned gentleman to have broken off As to the proceedings in the House of the treaty at once. But after all that, Lords, he would offer but a word on them, the learned gentleman's opinion underseeing that those proceedings were on the went another change; for in the debate Journals of the House, and that those a few nights ago, he came round to Journals were published at the close of the the opinion of the learned member for session, by which means they became ac- Oxford, and pronounced the omission of cessible as public documents, it was idle her majesty's name from the Liturgy to to pretend that we knew nothing of them. be most decidedly an illegal act. And It was his wish to abstain from entering when afterwards the learned gentleman into any discussion respecting those pro- was charged with some inconsistency upon ceedings; he should be sorry to say one this subject, what was his answer? Why, word that could inflict pain upon the he said, that "he considered it as sound illustrious person who had been the sub-philosophy, when a man received an ject of them; but, with the cousciousness that the whole was now before the public, he would declare, that he believed that there was not one man in the kingdom who, before the proceedings in the House of Lords, thought the ministers honest men, that did not, after those proceedings were over, think that what had passed in that House afforded an ample justification of ministers for the step they had taken. Upon the question of the Liturgy, it was equally unnecessary for him to dilate. It was quite impossible for ministers to give his majesty any other advice than that which they had given; it was not considered-it was not recommended as a punishment upon her majesty. The ministers conceived that this was a point completely within the prerogative of the Crown; and, under all the circumstances of the case, they did not feel it to be their duty to advise the king to confer upon her majesty that mark of special grace and favour. When the subject of the Liturgy injury from a person in authority, and could not get redress, to disguise his sense of that injury, and undervalue its extent." If this was true, said the learned gentleman, between two individuals, how much more was it so when one of them was an advocate, the advocate of a woman, and that woman a queen? Such was the learned gentleman's language as an advocate and as a sound philosopher; and when ministers heard it, they were silly enough to think they had a great authority in their favour; but when the learned gentleman came to speak as a member of parliament, he completely undeceived them; for upon the motion of the noble lord, a few nights ago, the learned gentlemen declared, that he considered the omission of her majesty's name in the Liturgy as" decidedly illegal", and reprobated it in the strongest manner; and yet he voted for the resolution, which merely stated, that the omission was " inexpedient and ill-advised"; whereas, if it was of the nature he had described it in his speech, he ought to have moved, as an amendment, that it was illegal. The learned gentleman had thus ingeniously contrived to display himself in both his characters in one night; for he had spoken as a member of parliament, and voted like an advocate, and a sound philosopher [a laugh]. ings at Liverpool, at Bedford, in Hampshire, in London, &c. ; but, that the public opinion was not so hostile to ministers as gentlemen asserted, appeared from the number of loyal addresses that were pouring in from every part of the country. It had been said by a noble lord, that these addresses were got up, to bolster what was called, a discomfited administration. Did It had been repeatedly said, on this and the noble lord then think so lightly of goformer nights, that the whole country vernment, that, if they wished to get up was against ministers upon this question; some forty or fifty, one hundred, or one yet it was worthy of remark, that after thousand, loyal addresses, they would find this most illegal act, as it was called, of any difficulty in the thing? The truth omitting the Queen's name in the Liturgy, was, that government did not in any dehad been committed, the parliament was gree interfere with these meetings, or with dissolved, and a general election took the way in which the addresses were got place. But then, when the people were up. Neither he, nor any of his colleagues, left to their own judgment-when their would wish to remain in office one hour minds were not misled, or their passions after they had lost the confidence of the inflamed, not one word was said upon people; but ministers were not to be conthis subject-not one of the gentlemen vinced, by the assertions of the gentlemen opposite considered it as a topic which he on the other side, that they had lost that could urge from any hustings in any part confidence; nor would they be induced of the kingdom with success.-Upon the by clamour or by taunts, to desert their assertion, that ministers had lost the con- duty to their sovereign and their country. fidence of the country, he wished to say [Loud cheers.]-It was common, at the a few words. The present administration beginning of every session, to hear that was opposed by the whigs, a party pos- ministers were about to resign; lists of sessed of great wealth, talent, and respec- their successors were even handed about, tability, professing a warm attachment to and it was confidently affirmed, that they the constitution, and honourably united could not remain a week in office. This together for the purpose of getting into reminded him of what used to be the case office, in order that they might thereby in the Peninsula: the intercepted correserve the country more effectually, spondence of Joseph Buonaparté was full according to their own system and of observations upon the blunders of the principles. They were opposed by an- English general, and of prophecies, that other party, inimical to all the existing the allied army was about to be destroyed; establishments in church and state-they but it always happened, that this blunderwere called the Radicals, a party nume-ing general, as soon as he got sight of the rous, active, assiduous, and persevering; and, he was willing to admit, that they were as different from the Whigs in character, and in their objects, as "light from darkness." These two parties, however, so essentially different in every thing else, agreed in one point. The Whigs had found out, that they could do nothing that was good; and the Radicals had discovered, that they could do nothing that was bad, while the present ministers remained in office; and therefore, these two discordant parties heartily joined together to turn them out. This junction had given them the appearance of strength; but still that strength was only formed by the union of those who always opposed ministers. The opponents of ministers at all the public meetings were composed of Whigs and Radicals, Witness the meet enemy's army, annihilated it. So it was with respect to the rumours to which he alluded; if they were to be believed, the ministers could not exist a week; but, when the battle took place, the truth ap peared-the Whigs were defeated, and the ministers confirmed in their places. There remained only one point on which he wished to say a very few words. His majesty's ministers had been accused of a disposition to persecute the Queen; and the gentlemen, on the other side, had by no means been sparing in their censures upon this point, But, before the House, or the country, condemned his colleagues and himself, it would not be amiss to inquire, what sort of treatment—what degree of mercy, her majesty would have experienced from the Whigs, if they had been in power? To these inquiries, the |