there would not have been a sufficient | his dissatisfaction; it was that part which attendance of members to receive the ex- referred to our foreign relations. In the pression of his majesty's thanks, the most speech from the throne, which was the proper course was the one that was fol- speech of the minister, they were told lowed. On the last topic to which the that his majesty had received assurances noble earl had alluded, he would say no- from foreign powers of the existence of thing. A proposition for a provision for amicable relations. For his own part, he the Queen would soon come from the could not see what matter there was for other House, and it would then be open congratulation,-what cause the people of for their lordships' consideration. This England had to exult, because their mowas all he felt it necessary to observe at narch was not called before the congress present; for though the noble earl did not of Laybach. Ministers had plunged this agree in the general policy pursued by his country into wars-they had burthened it majesty's government, and though he with taxes-and now, while they were could not give his unqualified approbation taking credit for having delivered Europe, to the Speech from the throne, it was yet the great powers of Europe, enriched by a satisfaction to find, that there was nothing our losses, aggrandized by the possession either in the Speech or in the Address to of territories to which they had no right, which he felt himself called upon to make were proceeding to further outrages, while a specific objection. we must be content with saying, we shall feel regret if you go to war, and this shall be the amount of our remonstrance. The noble lord had amused the House with a set of abstract opinions as to interference in the government of other nations, when it would be right, and when it would not be right; but what they wanted to hear was, whether he approved, aye or no, of the principles adopted by his pretended allies, who were bound by treaty to communicate and to consult with the government of this country. He did not think, ill as the noble lord had conducted the affairs of this country, and almost contemptable as his counsels had made it in the eyes of Europe, still he did not think, that if a proper remonstrance had been made, it would have proved unavailing. Sucha remonstrance would not be an interference with the government of another country but an effort to prevent the interference of those who intruded it. To compare small things with great, for with all his feeling for Naples, he could not help feeling that her cause was still inferior to that of France; but still, to make the comparison, he remembered that the very same language which they heard that day had been used when the duke of Brunswick was on his march towards Paris. would rather become a party to the infamous designs of those proud conspirators against liberty, than exhibit the meanness of mere regret when successful interposition was practicable. At all events, it would be better to say to Naples, we have been exhausted by wars until we are able to go to war no longer; these despots have got our money, and we can only give you our good wishes. The present condition of Lord Holland said, it was not his intention to enter into a wide field of discussion upon the general state of the country. Hisobject originally was, to put two or three very simple questions to the noble earl on the other side of the House; and he should have confined himself to those questions, if it was not for the topics that had been introduced. At the same time he should avoid entering into any review of the general system of the government. The noble lord (Liverpool) had professed not to understand what was meant by a system of government; perhaps he did not. It was natural enough that those who were in the habit of adopt ing measures one day, and abandoning them the next, should find out that they had no system whatever, and consequently bepuzzled by expressions which seemed to imply that they had. His noble friend, however (earl Grey), had marked out distinctly, as he thought, themeaning which he attached to the words. What he meant by a total change of system was, a restoration of the confidence which used formerly to exist between the people and their rulers; a restoration of the old English homely goodhumoured government, which had been so long abandoned, and so much impaired by the practices of the present administration. Such was the change to which his noble friend had alluded. It was not his intention, at present, to point out how a contrary system might be adopted, but there was one part of the speech from the throne, upon which, notwithstanding the explicit commentary of the mover of the address, he should feel that he was not acting as an honest man if he did not express VOL. IV. C He ministers reminded him of some verses, which he knew not whether he ought to quote in that august assembly "The doctor understood the call, "But had not always wherewithall." This brought him to the other part of his subject. It appeared from the correspondence of the Neapolitan government, that a treaty was concluded on the 12th of June, 1815, between the king of Naples and the allies. It further appeared, that Austria at present claimed the observance of a stipulation in that treaty, which, though not acknowledged by the government, was admitted by the duke of Campochiaro. It was a secret article, by which Naples was bound not to make any alterations in her government injurious to the interests of monarchy; and that the king was not to introduce any change which was contrary to the system (for these powers knew very well what their system meant, though the noble lord opposite and his colleagues, did not profess to understand it) which the emperor of Austria adopted towards his Italian states. Now if his majesty's ministers were aware of this article, he maintained that they had dealt most unfairly with the people of this country in not making it known. They were most unjust in agreeing to it, if it was known to them; for it was in direct hostility to the principle upon which they now went-that they would not attempt any interference in the internal arrangements of any country. But he could not think that his majesty's ministers were aware of this secret article, for he could not bring himself to believe that they were sunk so low as that, if they had known it, they would not have remonstrated against it at the time. They were bound to do so now, and it was their duty as the ally of Austria-as well as of Naples, to remonstrate with the government of Austria on the steps which she seemed about to pursue towards Naples. He would point out a mode in which such remonstrance could be made with effect. He would have ministers say to Austria "You are now flush in cash, you are raising large sums in certain places, and some Englishmen are engaged in advancing it to you, who will, no doubt, look anxiously after the payment of the interest of their advances. You are about to commence a crusade in a part of Italy; but before you begin to expend your vast sums, recollect that we have a little account against yoube just before you are generous, and pay your debts." He was reminded on this oc casion of a short passage in the renowned tragedy of " Tom Thumb the Great," in which the flatterers of that celebrated personage advised him to follow up some extravagant project he had taken into his head; and their advice was exactly what the servility of many of the smaller powers of Germany would give to the emperor of Austria at the present day. His flatterers thus addressed Tom Thumb. "Great sir, the purpose of your soul pursue." But while such advice was given, he would have the noble earl opposite say to his majesty the emperor "Great sir, I have an action against you." This, he thought, would prove a most effectual remonstrance, and an excellent hint to the emperor. What could be more natural than that, before the Austrian government began to expend such large sums as must be wasted in a war with Naples, it should pay us part of her large debt to us-a debt which, he apprehended, was at the present moment not less than from sixteen to seventeen millions sterling. Leaving such a vast sum due and uncalledfor, he would say, was one cause of the government not having before now paid the dividends (in gold we understood his lordship to say, but at this part of the sentence his voice was suddenly lowered, and the remainder of it was not heard distinctly below the bar.) We understood him, in continuation, to observe on the former system of the currency and the losses thereby occasioned to individuals who were obliged to receive in payment a currency of a considerably deteriorated value. When this, he added, was the situation of the country, was it too much to say to Austria, that being now about to engage in this crusade against Naples, a crusade which would put it out of her power to fulfil her former engagements with us " pay us our debts, before you show yourself able to do these things." This, he maintained, was in the power of ministers, according to existing treaties, which it was their duty to enforce. His belief was, that ministers did not wish for a war on the part of Austria against Naples. But it was not enough that they should confine themselves to the mere circumstance of not wishing it. They should remonstrate, and say to Austria, on the part of their sovereign, " I disapprove of this war, as I disapprove of any war with any nation founded on the principles of such interference in its internal concerns, I disapprove of a war against a nation with which I am connected by treaties, and in which you cannot engage without destroying the principles on which we have acted." Such ought to be the language which the ministers of the Crown should hold to Austria, and he was satisfied it would not be without the proper effect. He did not know what papers the noble lord opposite might be likely to produce on this subject; but if it should appear from them that this country had ceased to be on terms of amity and perfectly good understanding with Naples, in consequence of the late change in her government, he would maintain that the government of this country had not done its duty. A word from us against her present proceedings would, he was satisfied, be sufficient for Austria; and if our sentiments were firmly and decisively expressed on this occasion, she durst not refuse her concurrence. It was therefore nothing but idle mockery to say to the people of England that the government wished for peace, if the necessary steps were not taken to ensure it. He was sure that the noble duke opposite (the duke of Wellington) must have felt (though none of his colleagues had dared so to express themselves) mortified and disappointed at finding that the Spanish constitution (and here he begged not to be understood as mean. ing to say that the Spanish constitution was without defects-he knew it had defects; but if he were a subject of Spain, where it originated, or of Naples, where it was adopted, he would shed the last drop of his blood in defence of it, with all its defects, rather than suffer it to be wrested from him by any of the armed despots of Troppau)-but he was about to observe, that the noble duke must have felt mortified and indignant at finding this Spanish constitution, which had been established under his auspices, so violently opposed; and however much he might differ from the noble duke on many great political questions, yet he felt it but justice to him to say, that this country was not more indebted to its valour and skill-as a general, than to the wisdom he evinced on several occasions in his negotiations with Spain, and in conciliating the good-will of that nation towards us; but he acted on those occasions with the very government, and under that very constitution, to which, as he had observed before, the noble duke must since have felt mortified and indignant at finding the despots of Troppau so violently opposed. It was said, that these revolutions were effected by the army. He was not a friend to the principle, as a general one, that they were the fittest instruments for new modelling a government. He was too much attached to the principles of the Revolution of 1688 to adopt such a doctrine; but he confessed he was glad of the mode of change in the recent instances, as it gave another proof, that those who leant entirely on spears for their support, would sometimes feel the wound in their own sides. It was not now a matter of consideration, how the revolution in Naples had been ef fected. One thing was certain-it was a bloodless one; but if it were as bloody as it was peaceable-if it were as little calculated for the peculiar advantage of that nation, as he was satisfied it was conducive to their better government, still he would denounce the principle of foreign interference with the internal affairs of any nation, and still less could be support such interference when made by an armed force.-But it might be said, that we had no right to offer our advice to Austria. He maintained we had. Austria was our ally; and was he to be told that if he saw his friend about to plunge into the commission of some atrocious crime, or to commit some cruel act, that he was to withhold all advice until the deed was done? The advice would be then too late, and he should not act the part of a true friend if he did not give the advice while its adoption might be of use. He would then say to ministers, "Give your advice to Austria to desist;" and if your advice be reasonble she dare not refuse you. But he had heard it said, that though Austria could not expect any direct assistance from this country, she still would calculate upon the moral assistance of England. Now this he could not too strongly condemn; and it was a great reason with him for maintaining the necessity of having the most explicit avowal of the disapprobation of this government. If it was once known that the British government were warmly opposed to any hostile proceedings towards Naples, it would soon have the effect of depriving Austria of that moral assistance which she might look to in other quarters in the absence of a positive disavowal. Let England say to her ally Austria, "I say that your interference is improper, and in no one way will I give it any support or sanction."It was for these reasons that he disapproved of the language of the Speech and of the Address as equivocal. It gave their lordships no information on subjects the most important, and which, for aught that was said of them, it might as well not have touched. As the speech and of course the address gave no information on the important subject to which he had alluded, he would put a few questions to the noble earl, and he hoped, for the information of their lordships, he would answer them. He would wish to be informed whether our ambassador or agent at Naples was still the accredited agent to the Neapolitan government; and if so, whether he had received instructions to assure that government, that this country would not disturb the state of affairs there, or give any support or sanction whatsoever to any such disturbance by any other power, on the principle of interfering in her internal arrangements. His next question was, whether the secret article of the treaty of 1815, to which he had before alluded, was communicated to his majesty's ministers; and if so, was it followed up by any remonstrance on our part; and, if it was not then communicated, whether ministers when they became acquainted with it, remonstrated (as he thought they were bound to do) against any treaty in which this country was concerned containing principles which we disavowed His next question was, whether within the last year the noble lord had applied for the repayment of the Austrian loan, or any part of it, or of the interest which we ought to receive from Austria-this interest of which Mr. Pitt once talked so confidently. The Earl of Liverpool observed, in reply to the noble baron, that the questions he had put involved subjects of such magnitude that he could not attempt to answer them without going into a detail, which he was not prepared to do at that moment. If, however, the noble lord should think proper to call for specific information on any of the points to which he had referred, and should give notice of a motion to that effect, he would be ready on any such occasion to go into the subject, and to answer the inquiries of the noble lord. At present he hoped their lordships would see that he could not well go into such a detail. Lord Holland said, that the questions which he had put to the noble earl could not excite discussion at present, or require that detail which the noble earl seemed to imagine. He would, however, put them in a shape where they might be answered by a single " Ay" or "No." And, first, he would ask, were our diplomatic relations with Naples changed by the recent political changes in that country? His next question should be, whether the secret articles of the treaty of 1815 were communicated to ministers, and when? And the third was, whether any, and what application, had been made to Austria last year respecting the re-payment of the loan? The Earl of Liverpool again observed, that the present was not the moment to go into such details, but that he would be ready to meet the noble lord on the subject on any future occasion, when he should think proper to submit a motion respecting it. Lord Holland, after this refusal, wished the noble lord joy of belonging to an administration whose affairs were so complicated, as that the head of it could not give an answer, ay or no, to a few plain questions. Lord Ellenborough said, that undoubtedly that man was to be regarded as the greatest benefactor of his country, who could take the most certain means of preventing the calamities which might befal it. If, then, we looked back upon the state of the affairs of Europe for the last twenty-five years, who was to be considered as the man capable of conferring the greatest benefit upon his country? Not the noble general opposite, who had succeeded in putting an end to the war, but the individual who, at its commencement, possessed the means of altogether preventing the war. He congratulated the House and the country, that the noble baron possessed the means of preventing a war, which by many persons was considered likely to take place, not by bringing into action the military power of the country, but by a few words in the speech from the throne, and, what was still more extraordinary, by an application for the payment of a debt! Surely the noble baron must be aware, that the only effec tual way of enforcing the payment of a debt must be, an application from a general at the head of an army. It cer tainly appeared to him, that every thing had been done by this government, which, under the circumstances, was proper to be done. The answer which they had given to the Austrian government, was this, "We sincerely hope you will not go to war; and if you do, we will give you no assistance." The noble baron had dwelt much upon the situation to which we were reduced by the wars in which we had been previously engaged; and there could be no doubt, that, in the present distressed state of the country, war was a thing of all others most to be deprecated, But was this the moment which the noble baron would chuse to press for the payment of a debt? Surely that was a measure but little calculated to prevent a war, which, if it took place, was extremely likely to become general through out Europe. He was glad to hear from the noble earl, that he was ready to give full information to the House on the sub. ject of the negociations as to the affairs of the south of Europe, when they should be brought regularly before the House. He was the more gratified to hear this, as he had apprehended, from what had first fallen from the noble earl, that there would be some difficulty on this subject. In the present state of ignorance in which they were as to the causes of the late revolution, it was perfectly impossible to form any judgment of the conduct which ministers had pursued. He wished the noble baron, however, to state in what terms, and what precise form of words, he would frame that remonstrance, which was to prevent the possibility of war. vaccillating, knew very little of Austrian councils. Lord Ellenborough congratulated the noble baron and the country, since, notwithstanding the lamentable effects which he had ascribed to the policy pursued in this country for the last twenty-five years, he still thought its moral character stood so high, that a solemn declaration of its opinion must be imperative upon the greatest military power in Europe. Lord Holland said, that the noble baron had totally misapprehended what had fallen from him. He had never dreamt of ascribing any such miraculous effect to the moral character of the country. The Lord Chancellor said, it might not be amiss to observe, that if one noble lord were Austria and the other England, it would be extremely difficult to determine, whether they might or might not be prevented from going to war [a laugh]. The Address was agreed to nem. diss. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Tuesday, January 23. THE QUEEN-LITURGY.] Lord A. Hamilton gave notice, that he intended upon Friday next to bring forward a motion relative to the omission of the Queen's name in the Liturgy. of Lord Holland said, that he could have no objection to answer the question of the noble lord. The language which this Mr. Wetherell rose for the purpose country ought to have used to Austria, making a few observation relative to cer shou'd have been plain and unequivocab tain documents, of which he thought the We should have declared explicitly, that House ought to be in possession, before we would take no part in such a war; the motion of the noble lord was taken and we should have expressed, openly, in into consideration. He should, therefore, the face of Europe, not only our disap-give notice of a motion for the production probation of the war, but of the principle of such documents on some day before of the war. The noble baron had said, Friday, He was proceeding to state his that the most effectual way of addressing reasons for so doing, when he was called an emperor was, by a general at the head to order by of an army; but he forgot that this was no longer the case, when that emperor was looking for assistance and support from the party addressing him. Notwithstand ing the surprise expressed by the noble baron, he saw nothing so preposterous in supposing, that if, instead of the paragraph which the speech now contained, there had been one, lamenting that any of the allies should think of interfering with the rights of independent nations, the conduct of Austria would have been influenced by such a declaration. For his own part, he believed it would have prevented Austria from marching; at all events, they who thought that it would not have kept her for a long time hesitating and The Speaker, who was satisfied that the learned member would excuse him for interruption, but nothing was so irregular as to offer remarks upon that which was only a notice of motion. Mr. Tierney said, that it appeared to him that the learned gentleman intended, in consequence of the notice just given for Friday, to give notice of a motion for the production of certain papers previously to that day. He wished, in short, to put the House in possession of such information as would enable it to form a proper judgment on the question which would then be submitted to it. Lord Castlereagh admitted that such might be the meaning of the learned gen. |