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years ago. Ireland would then have been not far distant when this measure would held by the strongest tie—the tie of gra- be bailed with satisfaction by all parties, titude. It was not, however, too late to as putting an end to a monopoly of power do an act of justice.

and of place, which had already existed Mr. Grattan said, he dissented most for too long a period. decidedly from the amendment as being The committee divided : For Mr. calculated to destroy all the spirit of that Bankes's Amendment, 211. Against it measure which, at length, was making 223 : Majority, 12. The Chairman reported rapid progress in the House. He feared progress; and asked leave to sit again. that many who opposed the measure were adverse to the claims of the Catholics al

HOUSE OF LORDS. together ; that they looked to that body,

Tuesday, March 27. not as it was, but as it had been ; that they had a horror of the Catholics of Naples.] Lord Ellenborough rose for former times, and extended that feeling the purpose of moving an address to his to the Catholics of the present day. He majesty, praying that he would be gradid think that the hon. member for Corfe- ciously pleased to offer his mediation to .castle had failed to make out such a case the emperor of Austria and the governagainst the Irish Catholics as should dis- ments of Naples and Sardinia, with a qualify them from holding seats in parlia- view to bring about an amicable adjustment. He did believe that the peace, the ment of their differences, consistently harmony, the social feeling of the people with the honour of all parties. When the of Ireland, depended upon the result of noble marquis (Lansdown) near bim had the measure before the House. Catho- submitted a motion on the affairs of Naples lics in the Irish parliament had been found some time ago, he (lord E.) had then exto deserve well of their country. He pressed an apprehension, that at no discould not but deplore the system under tant period Austria herself might wish for which, at the present day, Ireland was the interference of this country, to enable governed—a system, the tendency of her to retire from the contest with honour. which was, to engender party feeling, to That moment, as it appeared to him, was tie a man's success rather to his creed now arrived; and he called on their lord. than to his character; to give ascendency ships to place this country in the proud to one individual, dependency to another, situation of acting as mediator between and liberty to neither. He did believe the belligerent powers, and arresting the that the good sense and the good feeling progress of a contest which might extend of the gentlemen of Ireland counteracted, itself to other countries. It appeared to in a great measure, the ill effect of the him that they were called upon to interexisting system; and that the inhabitants, pose at that moment, because it was the Catholic and Protestant, had but one ob- first moment when their mediation could ject-the improvement of their country. be offered with effect. Whatever opinions Still the code under which they lived was he might entertain with respect to the not the less objectionable. He trusted conduct of Austria, and of the allied that the present system would soon ter- powers generally, he would observe the minate, as the evils of it were greater greatest moderation in what he should than any persons unacquainted with them address to their lordships when speaking could possibly imagine. The hon. mem- of those powers, and particularly of ber then took a review of the measures Austria herself. For, however he might which had been enacted both against and lament and disapprove of her present in favour of the Catholics from the ear- policy, he was bound to acknowledge the liest period of their history down to the great services she had rendered to the present time; and asserted that by such whole of Europe. He could not avoid a review he had clearly proved his asser- recollecting her conduct in 1805 and the tion. He implored the House to allow zeal with which she sprung forward when the present bill to pass; as by so doing this country was threatened with invasion ; an inestimable benefit would be conferred he also recollected lrer conduct in 1809, upon Ireland, and peace, harmony, and when she seized the first moment of hope, good-will

, would be restored among its and exerted herself for the expulsion of inhabitants. Whatever differences of opi- the French from Spain ; and lastly, he nion might exist among the Catholics at remembered her faith and loyalty in 1813, present, he was certain that the day was which led to the successes of Europe and the triumph of the combined armies be- | Austria was surrounded, must she not be fore the gates of Paris. He was aware anxious to escape from the contest upon of the important functions which she had that ground ? It was impossible that Ausperformed, and was still destined to per- tria could forget the conduct of Russia form, in the system of Europe ; and, in 1807, or in 1809, when, instead of joinmuch as be lamented the nature of that ing she opposed the power of Austria. system as it was now manifested, he was It was impossible that she could forget not prepared to incur all the risks and her conduct, surrounded as she was by chances of war for the assertion of con- states from whose territories she bad made trary principles. It was not in hostility accessions, and not always in a manner to Austria, but for the benefit of our the most honourable to her character as a firmest ally, that' he called upon them to nation. The separation of Finland from afford Austria an opportunity of with Sweden, and the circumstances under drawing with honour from the contest. which it was accomplished, inust be fresh He would call upon the House to consider in the recollection of Austria ; and the the state in which the affairs of Austria general principle pursued by Russia in her and Naples stood. The road to Naples military policy, could leave little room to was not so easy as had been expected ; doubt that she would fight for herself in and the Austrians had found that instead Italy, and require cessions from Austria of an undisciplined rabble, they had to at a moment when she was least capable contend against a military force, and to of resisting the demand. But even if adopt the cautious movements which were Austria still believed in the good faith of necessary to be employed against skilful Russia, could she look with a total want opponents. Even had Austria been suc of suspicion to the state of France ? cessful in any general engagement, the What was the situation of France? She nature of the country, the enthusiasm of had obtained a constitution founded upon the people, the solemn obligation of oaths great principles, which she had force by which they were bound together, must enough to protect : and though her legisyet protract the struggle. When they lators had not entered into details, which considered what had taken place in Spain, time could best supply, the principles aland compared the circumstances of that ready recognised were a great benefit to country with those of Naples, they would the country. Such being the situation of see that there was no reason to believe France, with the Netherlands upon one the situation of her cause less favourable side, jealous of their separation, and than that of Spain. The House would anxious for a re-union with that country also do well to consider, that since the to which they were most attached, was revolution, the Neapolitan army had be- nothing to be apprehended from such a come one of the best disciplined in Eu quarter? Again, what was the situation rope ; and he would entreat them to re- of the Duchies within the Rhine ? It was fect, that Austria, who had entered into well known that they, too, would gladly the contest with the expectation of crush- reunite with the country from which they ing the power of Naples at once, had as had been separated. But what was the yet made no sensible impression on her situation of the Italian states themselves ? resources. It had been truly said, that Was it not probable that they would feel, the blood of the martyrs was the seed of that they could have no hope of succeedthe church. In the same way, the blood ing without calling in the power of France of the Neapolitans, would be the seed of to drive out the power of Russia. In his the liberties of Italy. They had proved opinion, the entrance of a Russian army the truth of the maxim, that when a would be followed immediately by the encountry was attacked with danger, and a trance of a French army to counteract spirit of resistance was awakened in the their movements, and join the war. They people, it was safer to compromise the might then anticipate the probable annexdispute than to encounter the difficulties ation of all the countries within the Rhine of subduing them. The effort to put to France, which had been separated from down the spirit enkindled by the Carbonari her by the treaty of Paris. ' The people would put Austria to an expense which of Prussia, too, who had fought not only must destroy that system of economy for their king, but for themselves, and which was necessary to her establishment who justly expected a constitution in reas a great power in Europe. But wlien turn for their services, were actuated by they looked to the other powers by which a spirit unfavourable to the cause in which Austria had embarked. The spirit of the effect in the way which they thought the North of Germany exhibited at that mo- most advisable. The address he would ment a class of men who were Carbonari move was, “ That his Majesty would be in principle, and Germans in courage; graciously pleased to use his mediation to and it was impossible not to see that the restore peace between the contending continuance of the war might rouse the parties, on such terms as would preserve Germans, and place Prussia in the situa- | the honour of Austria, and the trantion in which Austria now stood, with quillity and independence of Italy." respect to her Italian provinces. Under The Earl of Aberdeen opposed the moall the circumstances, it seemed natural tion. There were, be observed, many to suppose that Austria would be thankful difficulties attached to the course recomto this country for interfering, to enable mended by the noble lord. In the first her to retire with honour from the contest. place, it was known that the king of Naples The greatest difficulty which he expected had issued a proclamation, calling upon was on the side of the Italian powers ; his subjects to receive the Austrians as but when they considered the great force friends, and not as enemies; and it was that could be brought against them, and far from being desirable that this country that Italy, their own Italy, must otherwise should place itself in the situation of become the seat of war, with a prospect judge between the king of Naples and the of being left more oppressed and desolate persons now exercising the government than ever ; when they considered, that neither was it to be presumed, that the however justifiable their views, or elevated king's authority was so far gone, or that their enthusiasm, those views might be of the Carbonari so firmly established, as answered more efficaciously, and that en- to render it certain that the proclamation thusiasm attended with better effect, by would not be eventually obeyed. By the mediation of such a power as Great adopting the motion, they would be guilty Britain, than by the chances of any war of that interference which was directly in which they could engage, they too opposite to the course which they prowould be thankful for the offer. But if | fessed to follow. But supposing they Austria should still be deaf to the voice had got over that difficulty, the noble of reason, it appeared to him, that with lord had not explained very distinctly the out threatening war, there was one threat, manner in which he would have the meif indeed it might be called a threat, from diation proposed. Did he mean to offer which some influence might be produced terms of perfect equality to both parties? on her decision. If the war continued, The duty of a mediator was not that of a this country might at length be compelled judge ; but the motion looked rather like to join ; but whether compelled or not, a sharp remonstrance to Austria than a was it to be expected that such a people moderate interference. In fact, it was could witness a contest between despotism impossible to preserve the cool spirit of and freedom, without taking any interest mediation between two powers, under a in the issue? But suppose the English belief that an unwarrantable aggression would not do so, they knew that the had been committed upon one side. French would, and they knew the effect That the character of a peace-maker bewhich such assistance must produce on came a great country like this, he did the disposition of the couptries towards not deny, but there should be some proeach other. This was felt in the case of bability of success to warrant such an inAmerica and France; they were attached terference, and the only case in which to each other by the assistance afforded they could have any chance of success to the former at the revolution. What was, where both parties were desirous of ever the policy of government might be, mediation. The 'noble lord had thrown there was no denying that the feeling of out a species of threat, that if Austria did the English people was with the Italians; not consent, this country should recall the and he was sure he might safely say, that prohibition to its officers against joining there was not an English gentleman who the Neapolitans. Whether that prohibihad set foot on the other side of the Alps, tion was wise or not, every reason that who did not feel himself an Italian with made in favour of it, in the first instance, respect to the present contest. He had was still in full force ; but did the noble not annexed any principle of this kind to lord think that the mere circumstance of his motion, leaving it entirely to his ma- granting permission to a few officers jesty's ministers to carry the motion into would have the effect of changing the counsels of a powerful government? If Moval Bill.] On the order of the day they erected themselves into the charac- for going into a committee on the Bill, ter of judges, they were not mediators ; sir J. Newport moved an Instruction to if they professed to act as friends, they the committee “ That they have power to should speak the language of friendship, make provision for regulating the interand not accompany their recommendation course between Persons in Holy Orders, with an imbecile threat. The effect of professing the Roman Catholic Religion, the noble lord's proposition would be to with the See of Rome." injure the good understanding which at Mr. Hutchinson declared himself to be present existed between Austria and hostile to the Intercourse bill, and stated England. He did not wish to see Austria that the Catholic clergy were by no means replaced in all her ancient possessions, satisfied with it. but he wished to see her remain in pos- Mr. Carew stated, that he had resession of all she now had ; not only for ceived letters from several most respecto her own sake, but with a view to British able Catholics in Ireland expressive of interests, and the general security of the satisfaction which they felt at the bill. Europe. It was impossible that any man Mr. M. Fitzgerald said, he strongly who looked to the different states of Eu- objected to any interference of a Protesrope, should not be struck with the at- tant government over the administration tachment which the population of that of the Catholic Church. As a Protestant country felt towards this. An interfer- he felt objections to that interference on ence, such as was now proposed, would constitutional grounds, as strongly as a not only produce an effect on the govern- Catholic could feel against it on grounds ment itself, but would be likely to excite of faith. feelings of anger and bitterness on the part The House having resolved itself into of the whole population ; and by that a committee, means disturb a better security for na- Mr. Peel rose to propose the amendtional attachment than treaties could es ments of which he had given notice. tablish. When he inculcated the import- The nature of his proposition was, to exance of maintaining the friendship of tend the exceptions of the bill to the Austria, he spoke the language of all the privy council and to judicial offices. The wisest statesmen, and particularly that of House had last night pronounced its opia great man, whose opinions would be nion, that the Catholics ought to be adrespected by the noble lords on the other mitted to sit in both Houses of Parliaside. He had heard Mr. Fox say, after ment. He did not stand there to impugn the battle of Austerlitz, that Austria was that decision-he bowed to it. But he still the country to which England ought would take the benefit of an admission to look. The subsequent conduct of which was made last night, namely, that Austria had justified the remark. On the clause for admitting Catholics to parlooking to the circular of lord Castlereagh, liament was the main object of the bill; which he considered one of the wisest that the failure of that clause would renand most judicious papers ever issued der other parts of the bill of less value ; from the Foreign office, they would find but that the success of that clause would an express reprobation of the principle of make other exceptions of minor importinterfering in the government of other ance. As the bill now stood, an alterastates. They would see in it a particular tion had been effected in the exclusively exception which might apply to the case Protestant character of both Houses of of Austria herself, in respect to Naples. Parliament since the Revolution. It still, Was not this country bound to adhere however, left untouched the securities strictly to the principle she had so laid provided for the third estate, namely, the down? The time might come when her inviolability of the Protestant succession mediation would be acceptable, but it to the throne of these realms. The act would be the more acceptable in propor. for securing the succession excluded tion as we were exact in the observance Papists from the throne, and fenced of a strict neutrality.

round the rights and dignities of the estaThe motion was put, and negatived. blished church. It went further-it not

only required that the successor to the HOUSE OF COMMONS, throne should not be a Papist, but that Tuesday, March 27.

he should forfeit his right of succession if ROMAN CATHOLIC DISABILITY Re- he married a Catholic. To whom, then, VOL. IV.

5 B

were they to look for the maintenance of those offices where they would have to that compact so solemnly provided for by combat such manifest inconsistencies. the Act of Succession ? Not to the mo- How was it possible that a Roman Canarch himself; for by the law of England tholic could take the privy councillor's he was irresponsible ; for his acts his mi- oath, and do his duty accordingly, exnisters alone were to be adjudged. It posed to these humiliatory qualifications ? was therefore more particularly necessary How could he swear, faithfully and that those responsible advisers should not truly to declare his mind and opinion to be selected from a class which might ex- the Crown according to his heart and pose the monarch to the danger of an conscience," when, by giving his advice, undue influence. He was one of those he might commit a misdemeanor? He who thought that there was less danger would suppose the case of a Catholic sefrom a Catholic king with a Protestant cretary of state for the Home department, council, than from a Protestant king, and that a question was discussed before with a Catholic council. Indeed, he him, touching the education of the chil. should have apprehended infinitely more dren of a king, was it likely that, accorddanger from Charles 2nd, with his cabal, ing to “his heart and conscience,'' he, if than from his successor James, while a rigid Catholic, would recommend a Papists were excluded from his councils. Protestant education for the royal chilIt was said, why should they guard by dren? A privy councillor was, according oaths against a danger which might arise to the words of lord Coke, “a chosen from the admission of Catholics to office, sentinel" of the constitution. Was it when they provided po such guard against probable he would continue to be that, if Atheists and Infidels ? To this he would a Catholic, and restricted by these inconanswer–because they knew of no oaths sistent qualifications ? Pursuing therewhich could be made to apply to the fore the policy, the principle, and the necases of Atheists and Infidels.

He did, cessity, which regulated the act for sehowever, know of guards against Catho-curing the succession to the throne, and lics. They were recognized and acted looking at the important and responsible upon at the time of the Revolution; and duties of a privy councillor, he must conin the same spirit in which they were clude that Catholics could never be proposed in those acts, did he now call deemed eligible to fill that office.-Comfor their continuance. This bill provided ing now to his recommendation to exan eligibility for Catholics to all offices include them from all judicial offices, he the state save three which had been ex. begged not to be understood as opposed cepted. But although by this bill they to their admission to the rank of a silk might serve as ministers of the Crown, gown. It might be said to be an yet, inconsistently enough, were they ex- anomaly to concede to them a silk cluded, in the first place, from advising gown, and yet to exclude them from the the Crown respecting the grant of ap- bench. It certainly was; but the whole pointments, lay or ecclesiastical ; and, in provisions of the law upon this subject the second place, exposed to a penalty, were necessarily anomalous. With resif they ventured to advise the Crown res. pect to the exclusion of Catholics from pecting such appointments. Nothing the bench, he must beg leave to remind could be a harsher inconsistency, than to the hon. gentleman opposite, that the right declare men eligible to fill certain offices, hon. gentleman who had introduced this and yet, in the same breath, to punish bill had admitted not only the purity with them if they ventured to exercise or which the administration of justice was advise the exercise of the patronage pro- conducted by Protestants, but also the perly attached to those offices; so that perfect sense of that purity which was though they might become the responsi- universally felt by the great body of the ble ministers of the Crown, and constitu- Catholics. He was not aware that the tionally bound to advise the Crown for judicial situation was ever held by a Disthe best interests of the country, yet the senter: He believed that the judges moment they ventured to perform their were in the uniform habit of taking the duties and tender that advice, they be- sacrament according to the ritual of the came liable to the penalty of a misde- Church of England, and not availing

Rather than expose Catholics themselves of the annual Indemnity bill. to such an unjustifiable mortification, he They were also, he believed, called upon, should object to their being placed in in rotation, to assist in the court of dele


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