Lord Castlereagh said, that finding there was a doubt on the point whether the military had been called in before or after the close of the poll, he certainly felt no longer any disposition to resist inquiry on the subject. men, but not very fair to call the cap-1 or two disinterested witnesses. It was tain of a merchantman a slave-dealer, manifest that the onus probandi was here after he had long ceased to exercise that laid upon the wrong party, and that diffitraffic. With regard to the interference culties were cast in the way of the poor, of the military, the Whigs had found who were most exposed to frauds of this their assistance necessary not very long description. The labouring poor in the since at a Westminster election. country often bought their bread on a Saturday, and employed their children for that purpose. A deficiency in its weight might not therefore be discovered till Monday, when the time for receiving the complaint was gone by. In fact, he believed that in Norfolk, not one conviction had yet taken place under this statute, although a very short time before it passed, there had been 40 before one magistrate. In Dorset, similar effects had followed, and one magistrate had stated • to him that he was averse to receiving complaints, from a fear of making the bakers acquainted with the actual state of the law. In the county of Stafford the same inconvenience was generally felt. Sir J. Graham maintained, that there had been a great riot on the occasion in question, of which fact, no less than seven affidavits had been made, and that it was on that ground that the magistrates had issued orders for the troops to in terfere. The previous question was withdrawn, and the original motion agreed to. BREAD.] Mr. Harbord rose, to move for the appointment of a select committee to take into consideration the existing regulations relative to the making and the sale of Bread, with a view to repeal the same. When it was considered that two-thirds of the population of the empire lived almost entirely on bread, it behoved the House to see that they were supplied with it at the cheapest possible rate, of the best possible description, and in just measure. That was not now the case. The existing law on the subject was pernicious in its tendency, inasmuch as it held forth to the poor the expectation of a protection which it did not realise, and prevented them from using that caution to which they would otherwise resort. He had referred to all the acts on the subject which had passed during the last 553 years. He would trouble the House, however, only with the general result which he had drawn from those acts. All that he now felt it his duty to do was, to point out the defects of the law as it existed. With regard to the remedy, some might think that there ought to be no legislative interference at all; others might be of opinion that this or that provision would be desirable. He intended to move for the repeal of the 59th of Geo. 3rd, c. 36, containing a clause which enacted, that in all cases of complaint against bakers, the complaint should be made within 24 hours after the bread was made, and should be supported before the magistrate by one Mr. Littleton observed, that he had heard many complaints of the futility of the law in its present state. He was inclined to think that unrestricted competi tion would afford the public greater security than any legislative enactment, but was of opinion, at the same time, that there should either be an entire repeal of the law, or that bread should in future be sold by weight. Sir C. Burrell observed, that the circumstance of the quartern loaf being now sold at 10d., whilst fine wheat was at 147. a load, could only be ascribed to combination. Alderman C. Smith observed, that wheat being at 147. per load, the quartern loaf might be sold at 74d. The motion was then agreed to. ARMY ESTIMATES.] On the motion for bringing up the report of the committee of supply, Mr. Bernal said, he conceived the guards to be the most expensive force that the country could be called upon to maintain. They had become a sort of military police, and he was at a loss tó conceive what reason could be assigned for stationing a subaltern's guard at the West-India Docks, a serjeant's guard at the British Museum, or a corporal's guard at so many different posts in every direction. They might be very proper at the Tower; but certainly a commercial body, like the West-India Dock company, were capable of protecting their own property. Neither could he admit the fitness of a military guard for protecting the medals or rarities deposited in the British Museum. Now, the 100 men stationed at these two last-mentioned places would render a force of 400 necessary in order to afford reliefs. He was convinced, that 4,000 effective rank and file of foot guards would answer every purpose, and that the cavalry might also bear a considerable reduction. He wished for these reductions, if it were only as a pledge that this country was not to be made a theatre of experiment for introducing the military and despotic systems of the continent. Sir H. Hardinge contended, that to assimilate the guards to regiments of the line would considerably add to the present expense. Mr. Lockhart said, the House acted with regard to the public expenditure, like a prodigal, who first determined to spend a certain sum, and then proceeded to consider how he should get it. He objected to the report being brought up upon these principles, and maintained, that the committee was falsely termed a committee of ways and means. They did not consider the real ways and means by which the country might meet the expenditure, but merely recommended a given service to be supported by a given expenditure without estimating the means of the country. How could he tell that the repeal of the last malt duties, and of the husbandry horse-tax, might not be carried, and a deficiency consequently arise in the ways and means of the country to support the proposed expenditure? Sir H. Parnell said, that the prospect before the country was sufficiently lamentable, for the reasoning of ministers was, that if there were no reduction of the army, there could be no diminution of expenditure, and consequently no reduction of taxation. The hon. member proceeded to advert to the military force kept up in Ireland, and contended, that the civil establishment in that country was not placed upon a proper footing. The great defect of the system was, that constables were appointed by the grand juries, and consequently were not sufficiently under the control of the magistrates. He was satisfied that if the civil force were placed upon a proper footing, the army in Ireland might be consider ably reduced. The report was brought up. On the motion, that the first resolution for fixing the number of men at 81,468, be agreed to, Mr. Hume said, he was under the necessity of moving, by way of amendment, that the number, instead of being 81,468 : should be 71,468 men. He would take that opportunity of clearing himself, from the charge of having cast an imputation upon the guards. It was true he had said that some of them were kept up more for idle parade than real utility; but he meant this as no reflection upon the men; he merely wished to impress upon the House, that if a greater number were maintained than was necessary for the wants of the country, the only ends they could serve were those of idle parade. The great object which he thought most desirable in reducing the military establishment of the country, next to the saving in point of expense, was the necessity it would impose upon the magistracy of the country to depend upon the civil rather than the military power upon civil occasions. The occurrences at Carlisle, Dublin, and other quarters, ought to be so many lessons of caution to the House how they afforded facilities, by keeping up large military establishments, for the constant calling out of the military upon public occasions. As to the reliefs for the guards, he must say that they were created by the unneces sary manner in which that branch of the force was applied; for instance, it was impossible to pass into that House without seeing soldiers stationed in the avenues: there was actually a barrack in the House of Commons. Many evil consequences besides the expense arose from this practice; the regular civil police became relaxed and ineffectual. When any popular meeting took place, the peace was to be preserved by soldiers; a message was to be sent to the lord mayor to know how many guards he wanted, for there were plenty at his service. He had no wish to trench upon the comforts of the soldier, whose pay was doubled since 1792. [A cry of "No."] It was, he repeated, doubled. In 1792, the pay was sixpence a day; it was now a shilling. This was his arithmetical calculation; and he reminded the noble lord that he promised to be a match for him in arithmetic. His object was to reduce the numbers, and not the allow, ances of the soldier. He concluded by proposing his amendment. Colonel Davies said, that as the chief objection to reduction had been the necessity of reliefs for foreign garrisons, he should show that the proposed reductions could be made without taking from the troops applicable to reliefs. The old colonies had now 17,000 men. In 1787, they had 12,245, and in the latter half of 1792, 13,277. If the garrisons of those colonies were reduced to the standard of 1787, 4,700; if to that of 1792, 3,700 men might be reduced. With respect to the force at St. Helena, he thought that every purpose of safe detention might be accomplished with one-half the garrison now maintained. One regiment of cavalry might, he thought, be reduced. He challenged any professional man to defend the maintenance of the waggon train, which was altogether useless. He thought the reduction proposed in the amendment could be safely carried into effect. Mr. Martin, of Galway, said, that as the hon. member for Aberdeen, who might be called the leader of the Opposition, had proposed to reduce the pay of the soldier to one-half, would he get his party to pledge themselves to that mea. sure? Mr. Hume disavowed having made any proposition for taking away half the pay of the army. Mr. Hutchinson considered the exertions of the hon. member for Aberdeen to redound as much to his own credit, as they would ultimately prove of advantage to the country. When the House had been voting an extravagant estimate on an impoverished country, he did not envy the feelings of the hon. member, who had endeavoured to turn into ridicule the efforts of those who exerted themselves to lessen the burthens of the people. He was proud of being one of those who had joined in those efforts: he acknowledged no leader: he had looked at the distresses of the people, the state of the finances, and the policy of the country, and he declared, as a man of honour, that he believed the vote to be extravagant and unnecessary. Mr. Bankes said, that had he been present last night he should certainly have voted for the reduction of 5,000. In 1816 he had enforced the necessity of reducing the estimates so far as it was practicable to the scale of 1792. In the committee of finance, in 1817, he had pressed the same necessity, from a conviction that every attempt ought to be made to approximate the present with the former peace establishment as nearly as possible. Circumstances might, undoubtedly, render a greater number of men necessary at present than our situation in 1792 called for. The different system, for instance, on which reliefs were now conducted, could not be met by so small a number of men as was heretofore employed. There was, however, one point which strongly inclined him to think that the numbers now kept up were more than the present situation of affairs demanded. He alluded to the fact, that the establishment voted in 1819 was not so large as that now proposed. For his own part, he could see no reason whatever for voting a single man more than the force which in 1819 was considered sufficient. Looking to the state of the country, he saw nothing, either at home or abroad which could lead him to apprehend danger. The severe pressure of the times might, however, he was ready to confess, induce him to go farther in point of reduction, than perhaps he would be otherwise inclined to do. He would willingly vote for a reduction of 5,000 men; but he could not go as far as 10,000. Mr. Wilberforce could not but think that the number of troops proposed to be kept up was considerably too great. Those who were at the head of the military establishment might be of opinion that the force called for was not more than sufficient; but, on the other hand, it was natural enough for the people, who were to defray the expense, to wish that the number proposed should be lowered. In such a state of things, the parliament ought to make itself, in some degree, responsible for voting a lower establishment than ministers themselves would like to propose. If at a future period a greater force were wanted for our internal or external security, the country would much more cheerfully respond to the call, if it were now shown that the House felt a due commiseration for the distresses of the people. The force for domestic service, especially for Ireland, appeared to hirm to be too great. Whether this was the case with respect to the colonies, where the superficies to be defended was so extensive, he could not say; but, looking to the entire vote, he thought the House would not perform its duty if it agreed to it without modifications. Mr. W. Smith was of opinion that in the colonies a considerable reduction might be made in the military force. All the force necessary for their defence was one of sufficient magnitude to guard them from surprise by a coup de main. Now, which of the powers, in any one quarter of the globe, was likely to surprise, in a hostile way, a colony of Great Britain? Not one of our colonies stood in danger, either in præsenti or in prospectu. If they reduced their foreign garrisons, the saving would be more considerable than any that could be effected in any other branch. 1 Lord Palmerston said, that the increase since 1819 consisted of the augmentation of the regiment at New South Wales, from 650 to 1,000 men, which was effected in consequence of the representation of the governor of that colony. A regiment had also been appropriated to the service of Heligoland, &c., instead of proceeding on the old system of drafting companies to those places. He called on gentlemen to mark the situation in which the country would be placed, if they only voted 70,000 rank and file, which would be the number granted, if the amend ment were carried, exclusive of the veteran battalions. There were at present afloat 4,550 rank and file, a body not now available for any purpose to which, the army about to be voted was applicable. There were non-effectives of the line 4,400 men. There were at the dépôt at the Isle of Wight 3,100 raw recruits belonging to regiments abroad. Here, then, was a total of 10,250 rank and file to be deducted from 70,000, which the gentlemen opposite proposed. So that, in fact, they were only giving to government 60,000 men disposable for all the purposes which required a military force. Lord COUNTY COURTS RATE.] Althorp moved the second reading of this bill. Mr. Lockhart agreed in the principle of the bill, because he conceived it was not proper that the superior courts should be occupied in deciding causes, where the property in dispute, whether money or chattels, was of trifling value. It was also a great hardship on the suitor, who frequently lost 30%. or 40%. in endeavouring to recover a much smaller sum. The noble lord meant to remedy this evil by creating a sort of county judge-a barrister-who, with the aid of a jury, would be able, four times in a year, to determine causes of a certain value. Now, he conceived, that a new tribunal was wholly unnecessary. In his opinion, if the powers of the courts of quarter session were amplified, the duty could be done more constitutionally. This would be a much more respectable and efficient tribunal-more under the aggregate eye of the country, and attended with less expense to the public. He hoped the noble lord would explain whether there was any foundation for the rumour, that it was intended to pay the judges in these courts by allowing them a fee of 6d. for each cause. It was evident that such a regulation was quite incompatible with any thing like the respectability which ought to attach to the judicial character. It was not his intention to oppose the second reading of the bill; but if it went into a committee, he should certainly oppose it in toto, or move such an alteration as would prevent the appointment of barristers to the offices of judges in county courts. Mr. F. Palmer hoped the House would not agree to the suggestion of his hon. friend of throwing the business in ques tion upon the quarter sessions. The increase of business in that direction had already become very inconvenient. Mr. Chetwynd conceived it necessary that some change should be made in the constitution of the county courts. The poor had great reason to complain of the impositions practised on them by the country attornies under the present system. As to the quarter sessions, they had already sufficient business; and if the House, by adopting the suggestion of the hon. gentleman, should overburthen the country magistrates, the consequence would be, that no gentleman would accept the office, and the country would be obliged to have recourse to that greatest of all curses, a stipendiary magistracy. At the same time, in the present distressed state of the people, he could not consent to anyadditional burthens on the county-rates, and therefore he should oppose that part of the bill which proposed to provide salaries for the judges by the imposition of a new rate. The Attorney General had no hesitation in saying, that he thought the plan of the noble lord extremely objectionable. It went to establish a perfectly novel jurisdiction, and one that would be attended with heavy expense. The noble lord proposed to establish no fewer than 80 tribunals, with a barrister at the head of each. The salaries of these judges, considering that their time was likely to be occupied exclusively by the business of their courts, could not be averaged at less than 500l. a year, which amounted to no less a sum than 40,000., exclusive of the salaries of 80 clerks. The plan of paying the judges by allowing them a fee for each cause was too degrading to be entertained for a moment; and therefore their salaries must be paid out of the county-rates. Lord Althorp said, that as the opinion of the hon. and learned member was unfavourable to the bill, he feared there was little chance of its ultimate success; but he would press it to a second reading, in the hope that he should be able to alter the bill so as to render it free from objec*tion. The bill was read a second time. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Friday, March 16. PETITIONS RESPECTING THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS.] Mr. Wilberforce VOL. IV. presented a petition from certain Roman Catholics of Staffordshire and Warwickshire, against the bills now in progress for the relief of the Catholics. He did not concur in the prayer of the petition; but as it had been forwarded to him, he had thought it his duty to present it. Sir T.Lethbridge said, that from the sentiments expressed by these petitioners, he would call upon the House to pause before they proceeded further with the bills now in the House, one of which went to give the Catholics what they wanted-the other to impose restraints upon them, to which they were not subjected at present. What reason could they have for thinking that these measures would satisfy the Catholics, when a petition like this was presented from them, with the name of Dr. Milner attached to it? If the bill, which the Catholics wished to pass into a law, were passed, the Protestants, he was sure, could not be satisfied, unless another bill were passed to impose such restrictions as could not be other than unpalatable to the Catholics. He could see no reason for two bills being brought in, unless he assumed that the one which the Catholics desired should be passed, was intended to be permanent, while the repeal of the other, at no distant period, was in contemplation. He had no doubt, that if these measures were passed, they would in a few years find the Catholics coming again to parliament to petition for the repeal of one of them. loyalty and merit of the petitioners he would be the last man to deny. He had a great respect for the Catholics both of this country and of Ireland; but still he had ever thought it his duty to oppose their claims, and he would continue to do so. Granting all they desired would, in his opinion, be likely to subject the country to the same disasters which had unhappily been experienced at a former period of our history, and from which we had only relieved ourselves by means of laws-not like those now in force against the Roman Catholics, but by such as were in force fifty or sixty years ago. Of the repeal of those laws which were no longer in force, he did not complain, but he hoped the House would not take a course that would be likely to reproduce the misery formerly experienced. The Mr. Plunkett said, the hon.baronet had thought proper, in some degree, to anticipate the discussion of the subject, to which the attention of the House would 4 M |