dispersed, the result must have been most satisfactory to those by whom the experiment was suggested. But the noble lord and his colleagues had drawn the strangest possible inference from the transaction to which he referred; and through that inference, 11,000 veterans were embodied without even consulting parliament, professedly because such an increase of force was necessary for the preservation of public tranquillity. For an explanation of that extraordinary proceeding, however, he would say "vide The London Gazette," which was filled with declarations from ministerial adherents, that the country was in danger, that disaffection was rapidly spreading, that morality had lost all its influence, that sedition was the order of the day, and that blasphemy was quite the fashion. These the pictures upon which the veterans were embodied; and now ministers, it appeared, were anxious to take credit for economy, because they proposed to disband those corps which, in point of fact, they never should have embodied at all. He exhorted ministers, if they wished to have credit for real economy, to take a wider course in the reduction of the army. There was a time when that House would not have agreed to any vote of this nature without instituting an inquiry into the internal state and financial circumstances of the country. The present was not, however, the season for inquiry, but for implicit confidence in those ministers who were really undeserving of it. Among the instances in which they were not deserving of confidence, was the phenomenon which they had established in our police. This phenomenon was, indeed, utterly irreconcileable with the principle and practice of the constitution, and peculiarly calculated to destroy all confidence between the government and the people. He meant not the spy system, exception able as that system must be deemed, but the establishment of that description of persons, noticed in the report of the committee of 1817, who, being employed as spies by the government to detect treason, actually endeavoured to excite that crime. It was not merely to Oliver and Castles that he meant to refer on this occasion, but to the circumstances disclosed upon a recent trial in the Court of King's. bench, with respect to the conduct of Fletcher and others. He did not entertain an opinion that any member of the government was implicated in the nefari ous conduct of Fletcher and Co.; but after the disclosures alluded to, it could not be matter of astonishment that a very different impression prevailed out of doors. Here the hon. member took a rapid review of the force proposed to be kept up in Ireland, which was confessedly in a state of tranquillity. He deprecated the idea thrown out as to the possibility of a new continental war, in order to reconcile the House to the existence of a large military force, trusting that ministers would not be unmindful of the evils entailed upon the empire by the late very calamitous war. To the noble secretary for foreign affairs he would not appeal, as he thought that that noble lord, from his close intimacy with German and other foreign diplomatists, was, with all his respect for him, actually spoiled as an English statesman. But there were other ministers to whom he looked with some confidence, for the protection of the country from any farther aggravation of its distress, by any concern in continental warfare. The hon. member concluded with expressing his intention, in the event of the present motion being carried, to move an amendment for the reduction of 10,000 men in the force proposed by the noble lord. Mr. C. Grant agreed with his hon. friend (Mr. Dawson) in thinking that Ireland was at present in a state of tran. quillity. He rejoiced to hear this admission, because he recollected that some months ago his hon. friend had, in prophetic tones, anticipated a very different result, and had pointed his severest shafts at him because he had presumed to express a hope that Ireland would continue in a tranquil state. He might therefore appeal to his hon. friend to reconcile this apparent inconsistency of conduct; but passing that by, he hailed the concession with pleasure. He could assure the House that he was as anxious as his hon. friend could be to reduce the military force kept up in Ireland, and to recede from a system which in that country had been pursued to too great an extent. That reduction, however, must be gradual; and the hon. gentlemen, if they reflected on the various duties which the military had to perform in that country, would see the impossibility of fixing on a definite number of men, from which the government was not to have the power of receding. Sir H. Vivian remarked upon the in consistency of those gentlemen on the opposite side of the House, who, while they urged ministers to take such measures with respect to Naples as were most likely to involve the country in war, would refuse that amount of military force which was essential to enable government to prosecute such a war with effect. The gallant officer strongly deprecated the idea of reducing the number of our regular regiments, deeming it more expedient, especially with a view to the expeditious preparation of an army, rather to keep up a number of skeleton regiments than to be under the necessity of raising entirely new corps upon any sudden emergency. He hoped the House would take into consideration the state of the half-pay officers, who were at present so numerous, and many of whom did not receive in half-pay even the interest of the money which they had originally paid for their commissions. Mr. Bernal called upon those gentlemen who were termed the neutral party, and who were constantly professing them selves the advocates of retrenchment, to support those professions by their votes on this occasion. Mr. Bennet declared that it was impossible the country could support such an establishment as they were now called on to agree to. He would say, and say it boldly, that the country could not afford to pay the taxes which would be required to maintain such an establishment, and the whole country was of the same opinion. The noble lord told them it was impossible to return to the standard of 1792, but what said their own finance committee of 1817? In that opinion he concurred, and he should therefore vote for the reduction of 10,000 men from the present estimates. He proposed a return to the standard of 1792, because we had now on foot a large force which was not then in existence, and which rendered unnecessary so large an establishment of regular forces. The yeomanry cavalry, volunteers, marines, and artillery, in this country and Ireland, amounted to 168,000 men and upwards. These, in addition to a regular force on the scale of 1792, was sufficient to take away from the minds of the most timid any apprehension for the security of the country. A considerable reduction of expense might be effected by pulling down the useless fortifications which had been erected in different parts of the country. The noble lord talked of the force necessary to protect the stores. But of what nature were those stores? Sheet anchors, ships' masts, and cannon, were not very portable commodities; and surely the 6,000 marines at the several stations were sufficient for that purpose. If the House looked less at his majesty's ministers, as they sat there proposing such establishments, and more at the condition of the people who were to pay for them, they would reduce the amount of those estimates; and he was sure, in that case, the noble lord and his masters would find a way to cut down their establishments accordingly. The country was suffering under the pressure of distress, which rendered it unable to afford such a scale of expenditure. Their table was loaded with petitions, calling upon the House to relieve the distresses of the people. The only possible way in which that could be done was by reducing the establishments and lowering the taxes. If they did not adopt that course, it was in vain for them to appoint a committee to inquire into the causes of the distress. The committee might sit till doomsday, the distress would continue to increase, and the difficulties of our situation would daily become more perplexing. Lord Castlereagh said, that with respect to the military grounds of the question, it appeared that the hon. gentlemen opposite did not object to the scale proposed for our foreign possessions, but only to the magnitude of the home establishment. All questions of this nature must be examined with a view to the exigencies of our situation; but he did not agree in opinion with the gallant officer, that there was any thing in the affairs of Naples which could require the addition of a single man to our establishment, and he expressly disclaimed any view of that nature. Government had not been influenced in the slightest degree by any regard to the aspect of affairs in that quarter in proposing the present estimates. With respect to the reduction of our forces át home, he would remind the House, that the establishment of last year was thought necessary to preserve the tranquillity of the country, and he must say he thought it would be highly imprudent to reduce the force all at once below the scale at which it stood before that necessity existed. They had reduced the amount which was on that occasion added to the scale; and that he contended was as rapid a reduction as was prudent; exist when a great pressure was felt by a but if they proceeded to a further reduc-anxious circumstances which must always tion of 10,000 men, they would not be able to carry on the service in the colonies with the number which the gentlemen opposite agreed they required. There would not be a sufficient force to furnish the reliefs required for the colonies. The House was aware that the cavalry and the guards were not available for that service. The amount of the force proposed for Great Britain and Ireland was 48,000; of these there were about 9,000 cavalry and 6,000 guards, the deduction of which would leave only 33,000 for the home service, and to furnish reliefs for the large army in the colonies. He objected to the course which had been taken on a former night by the hon. member for Abingdon, who opened to the view of the House very extensive details, and, without saying to what particular he objected, concluded by asserting, that some large and wellsounding sum of two or three millions might be saved. They were now in a committee, and the hon. member had an opportunity of proving his assertion in detail. The reduction that was made this year amounted to 707,000 in the army, 300,000l. in the navy, and 444,000l. in the miscellaneous estimates, making a reduction of more than 1,450,000. The estimates were within 36,521. of the sum contemplated by the committee of 1817; but from the estimate of that committee had been excepted two considerable sums, viz. the charge of embodied militia, and the pensions created by the return of the army of occupation from France, both of which were merged in the present estimates. Even, if the hon. member were to try the case by reference to his own standard, he would find that they had actually accomplished the recom mendation of the finance committee. He would contend that 10,000 men would not be sufficient to recruit the army abroad, and that a reduction of one million and a half had taken place in this year as compared with the last. The proposition, therefore, submitted to the House on a former night, was founded on a misconception, as it assumed that reduction was not intended by the government. He felt it necessary to say a few words as to the distresses of the country. No one felt those distresses more than he did; for if there was any class of men more likely to feel for them than another, it was that class which conducted the public service, under the Mr. Calcraft said, that when the force was infinitely greater than it was at present, and reductions were pressed by himself and others, the noble lord then as now, with honeyed words framed to make senates false," said, that if they took away any part of it, the duty of the country could not be done. He was as far from wishing to practise any delusion on the country as the noble lord bimself, and he would not so insult the good sense of the people of the country as to offer to them any statements which he would not seriously propose to that House; but, if the people continued to place any confidence in the statements and arguments of the noble lord, he should feel much surprised. He denied that the noble secretary at war opened his estimates by stating a reduction of 707,000l. He opened only a saving of 45,000l. If there were a saving of 707,000l. how did it happen that the vote now called for was not so much less than that of last year? They had the old story of reliefs. In the statement of his hon. friend, 10,000 men had been allowed for that purpose, being a fifth part of the force employed on foreign stations; and he would appeal to his hon. friend, the gallant general opposite, or to any other military man in the House, whether that was not sufficient. The home service might be reduced in the proportion mentioned by his hon. friend, and yet leave 10,000 for reliefs above the establishment of 1792. The cavalry and guards were not available for reliefs; their present establishment exceeded that of 1792 by 8,000 men. They were by far the most expensive description of force; and a reduction of 8,000 would enable them to increase the troops available for the colonial service by four thousand, and yet a considerable saving would be effected. The right hon. secretary for Ireland had contended for the necessity of the present establishment in Ireland; but during the war, when Buonaparté was at the height of his power, that coun try was left with only 10 or 12,000; and yet, forsooth, in a time of peace, with a large yeomanry establishment, it was contended that 20,000 were absolutely necessary. It was not a large establishment that ought to be looked to, but the comfort, security, tranquillity, wealth, peace, and repose of the people. Referring to the observation of his gallant friend, as to the affairs of Naples, if any force were required from this country in that quarter, he trusted it would be an efficient naval squadron. Mr. Huskisson insisted, that his noble friend, when he opened the estimates, had stated, that reductions were made to the amount of 707,000. He assured the committee that the vote of this year was less by 707,000l. than that of last year. The reduction spoken of by the other side of 10,000 men, would not leave a sufficient force for furnishing reliefs to the foreign stations, and doing the home duty. He maintained, that this country had still within itself resources which would furnish the means of supporting a war, if it were called on to defend its honour or its independence by an appeal to arms; and denied that the trade of the country was in that depressed condition which many persons imagined. The iron trade and the cotton trade, he contended, were improving. Mr. Maberly said, that it was not his intention to delay the committee by any lengthened observation, but, having been so personally alluded to by the noble lord, he could not avoid making a few remarks. The noble lord had talked of his motion for the reduction of taxes, as if it were an attempt to delude the people. Did the division on that occasion look as if it were so considered? The noble lord had said that he was ready to go into a committee. He accepted the challenge; and if the noble lord consented to the committee, would show him that millions could be saved. Would it be said that no saving could be made in the collection of the revenue, which was now done at 8 per cent? In Ireland, it was 21 per cent, when the revenue was not much more than 4,000,000%. When he proposed, that this collection should be made at a cheaper rate, was it to be endured that it should be called a delusion on the people? He would tell the noble lord, that if the committee were gone into, the savings which he had suggested, aye and more, might be made. He did not propose that they should arise from pitiful and paltry reductions of clerks' salaries. He did not propose any savings from a reduction of the pay of the army. It was not the army, but the things appertaining to the army, that caused the expense. He had said that four millions might be saved; he did not mean to press the saving of that particular sum; but he would prove in the committee, that a direct saving of 2,000,000l. might be made in the collection of the revenue. He had been called upon to show what particular savings might be made. He would mention one case. It was known that during the war it had been found necessary to keep up a storekeeper-general's department. It might be asked, was it necessary to keep up that establishment at this moment? As a proof of that necessity he should mention one fact. By the returns made to the House it appeared, that the whole value of what was stored last year was 114,000/.; on which an expense of 52,000l. had been incurred just 45 per cent upon the whole. But this was not all: there were duplicates of those offices in all the colonies abroad where we had ordnance officers, and where the whole thing might be done without one additional shilling of expense. We had storekeepers in Canada, Nova Scotia, Gibraltar, the Mauritius, and several other colonies. He mentioned these circumstances to show that savings might be made; but the principle adopted on the other side seemed to be this-that the storekeeper-general's department having once been established must be kept up. Now, he would contend, that a saving of the whole ought to be made, at a time when the reduction of every shilling was of importance to the people. The cries of" Question " now became loud, and strangers were ordered to withdraw. The gallery continued closed from half past 12 till 3 o'clock. During the exclusion of strangers, several divisions took place, each of which was preceded by warm discussions. The first division was on colonel Davies' motion, That the Chairman report progress: Ayes, 95; Noes, 216. A division then took place on a motion for adjournment: Ayes, 92; Noes, 209. Three other divisions followed on similar motions, on which the numbers were as follows: Ayes, 62; Noes, 220. Ayes, 60; Noes, 212; Ayes, 48; Noes, 158. On the motion of Mr. Gordon, that the second Report of the Finance Committee should be read, the Committee divided: Ayes, 45; Noes, 162. Another division took place on a motion that the chairman should report progress: Ayes, 47; Noes, 164. At twenty minutes past three, strangers, after an exelusion of between three and four hours, were again admitted to the gallery. Ministers were at that time sitting on the opposition benches, their places being occupied by their opponents.-Mr. Hume moved, that the act of William and Mary, for disbanding the army, be read; upon which the committee divided: Ayes, 43; Noes, 144. A ninth division took place on the question, that the Chairman report progress: Ayes, 43; Noes, 140. A tenth division took place on the same motion: Ayes, 38; Noes, 145. At four .o'clock, fresh candles having been brought in, Mr. Lambton moved, that they should be excluded. On this the committee divided: Ayes, 38; Noes, 146. Lord Castlereagh then observed, that considering the lateness of the hour, he would not press the question further, as the estimates could not be got through ing any reasonable time. The chairman then reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again; and at five in the morning the House adjourned. List of the Minority on the last Division. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Wednesday, March 14. VAGRANT LAWS.] Mr. Chetwynd rose pursuant to the notice which he had given respecting the Vagrant Laws. The subject, he observed, was of very considerable importance, whether considered in a moral or pecuniary point of view. It was notorious that the county rates had of late years increased to a very great extent in every part of the kingdom, and it was equally notorious that the great burthen of them fell upon the already distressed agriculturists; for, by several decisions in the courts of law, it seemed now settled, that money lent on interest on mortgage, or vested in the funds, was not liable to poor or county rates. Among other items by which the latter had been considerably increased, was that of the passing and maintaining of vagrants. To show how this branch had increased, he would mention only one fact. very able work on Indigence, published by that enlightened and accurate magis. trate, the late Mr. Colquhoun, it appeared that the expense incurred for passing vagrants in the year 1806 was 15,000Z.; but by a return made to the House, it would appear that in 1820, that expense was increased to 58,605.; and if all the collateral expenses were included, he did not doubt that they would be little short of 100,000l. The spirit of our Poor Laws never was, that the idle and sturdy should be supported; but that work should be found, if possible, for those who were able and willing to work, and who could not procure it by ordinary exertions. At present, the country was over-run with paupers not persons who were really distressed, but by idle vagrants, who did not wish to work, and who made a sub In the |