that there was nothing in the state of this country or of Europe, which could justify the continued exclusion of the Roman Catholics from taking that station in society which their growing prosperity had entitled them to; and that the appre indeed conceive why the Catholics should magnitude and importance of the present consider it of great importance; because, to hang about the government in an unas the right hon. gentleman had observed, settled state. He had not understood, as it was natural for them to feel great in- his right hon. friend seemed to have done, terest in being excluded from those offices that the right hon. mover had looked and honours which were open to the at- upon the question as one of right. If he tainment of others, and in being con- had so done, he must differ from him, for sidered, under the circumstances of the he looked upon the question of admissiconstitution, not as dissenters, but as bility as one which must be decided by Catholics. Still, however, the question the necessity of the case. He was fully at issue certainly did not appear to him prepared to maintain the right of the state to involve that degree of advantage on the to abridge the liberty of the subject, where one side, and of danger on the other, that was found to be necessary for the which ought to provoke the warmth that general benefit; and this he held to be at present existed. He could not con- particularly applicable to the ecclesiastical ceive how that mind was constructed part of the state; but he did not think which convinced itself of danger arising that necessity now existed for the exfrom the equality of Protestants and Ca- clusion of the Roman Catholics. The tholics, or which could have any other ob- Roman Catholic was not placed on the jections to the establishment of that footing of dissenters from the Church of equality than a repugnance to change of England in general; this was a marked every kind. He could not persuade him and particular exclusion, and for which self, if this concession were made to- he could see no reasonable ground morrow, that it could bring the Catholics in the present state of the country. any accession of power, and he thought-The noble lord then proceeded to show, that the right hon. gentleman had stated this point more strongly than was borne out by the truth. Stress might be laid on the numbers of the Roman Catholics, and the danger which might be apprehended from that circumstance if ever they should attain any considerable in-hension of future danger from their increase of political power; but if we looked to other parts of the empire, and saw their numbers, greater out of all proportion, we could not for a moment entertain any idea of danger to the constitution from the numerical strength of the Roman Catholics, if they had the means or the inclination-neither of which he admitted to turn their strength against the interests of the country. He would put it to the House, whether, considering the nice balance of opinion in that and the other House of Parliament upon this question, it was a subject which ought to be suffered to hang about them in an unsettled state? Looking at the present, and what might be the future state of Europe, he would ask whether such a question, calculated as it was to create considerable embarrasment, ought to remain perma nently unsettled? Giving every credit to his right hon. friend for the candid and honourable manner in which he had discussed this question, yet he could not agree with him, that in the fear of future possible danger to the country, or even in the fear of a danger of our having a Catholic king, we ought to allow a question of the creased power, was not a sufficient justification for their exclusion. In France, in the Netherlands, in Holland, and even in Germany, no such regulation was allowed. The treaty of Westphalia had contributed to eradicate such distinctions; and it was not therefore strange, that at the last congress at Vienna the only thing which had been unanimously agreed upon was, that the distinctions of religion should not be considered as a bar to the advancement of any man to a situation which he might be capable of filling properly. He appealed to the House whether such distinctions ought to be supported in this free country. Not even in Hungary, where the Roman Catholic religion was the established one, was the difference of religious sentiments held to be injurious to any persons in their political conduct. The reasoning of his hon. friend founded upon the practice of Hamburgh and of Sweden, ought not to be looked upon by the House as conclusive. Those concessions which he considered as fitted to be granted to the Roman Catholics ought to originate in a spirit of liberality; and he was proud to say, that of all the different internal state of the country, than the connexion of the Catholic clergy with the government of the country. It was impossible that it should be effected whilst the great body of the Catholics remained in their present state of exclusion. What they wanted was, to make the law respected in Ireland-to make it effective. But he knew that government never could have the same authority, or enforce its authority with due effect, whilst this exclusive system was continued. If the House should consent to go into the committee, he would do every thing in his power to forward the measure, because it was his conviction that until it was carried, a great defect would remain in the security and harmony of the empire. religious divisions of the world, there was not one more disposed to liberality than the Church of England. When he applied this principle to Ireland, he saw the strongest reason for supporting it. He would not have it understood that the question of Catholic emancipation was ever held out to Ireland as a pledge for the union of that country with England. It was distinctly understood that that question was to be left entirely to the discretion of the legislature. Looking, however, to the situation of Ireland, he maintained, that the only practical mode of effectually putting an end to the embarrassments which were met in the government of Ireland would be, by removing the discontents arising from the present situation of the Roman Catholics. He would declare, that they could never expect to settle the differences which existed in Ireland, and to apply to that country the remedies which its internal condition required, until this question was finally and amicably adjusted. He felt that the established church in Ireland should be supported at all risks; for if ever attempts were made against it (which he could not anticipate as a result of the present measure), force must be opposed to force, and such attempts would be put down; but he conceived that that church might be sufficiently protected, not indeed by making the Catholic religion the established religion of Ireland, but by affording to it the same protection as to every other class of dissenters. With respect to the making a provision for the Catholic clergy of Ireland, he would say, that if that had been done before now, the internal situation of that country would be very different from what it was at the present day. He had submitted a proposition of this kind to the heads of the Catholic clergy, under the administration of lord Sidmouth, then Mr. Addington, and he was informed, that however liberal the offers which were made might be, the measure could not be carried while the lay part of that religion remained excluded from the privileges which they so earnestly hoped for. He thought the government acted wisely on that occasion. Nothing, he conceived, would contribute more to improve the state of Ireland, than such an arrangement. He did not mean that the clergy should be placed in a state of subserviency to the government; but that no measure could be more calculated to improve the Mr. Martin, of Galway, begged to oppose to the theory of the right hon. member for Oxford something that flowed on his mind from experience. Instances as likely to excite the Catholics against the Protestants, had occurred, as any that might be expected to rouse the Protestants against the Catholics; but the result had been satisfactory. The Derry Journal being prosecuted by the Catholics for a libel, a Catholic jury had given a verdict against a Catholic priest, and when Mr. O'Gorman brought_an action against the Dublin Evening Post for calling him "a dishonourable blockhead," what did the jury tell him? Why they told him, that he was entitled to sixpence damages. This served to prove, that Catholics were bound by their oaths, and ready to perform their duty. He should certainly vote for going into the committee. If they wished to withdraw all the benefits that had been conferred on the Catholics, they might consistently negative the present motion; but having paid 999. and obtained no receipt, if paying another shilling would procure the receipt, it would be wisdom for such an object to make so small an additional sacrifice. The House divided: Ayes 227. Noes 221. Majority in favour of the motion 6. List of the Majority; and also of the MAJORITY. Abercromby, hon. J. Althorp, visc. Campbell, hon. J. PAIRED OFF. Carew, R. S. Cavendish, lord G. Cavendish, H. Cavendish, Charles Carter, John Castlereagh, lord Caulfield, hon. H. Chichester, A. Clifton, visc. Hamilton, lord A. Hurst, Robt. Huskisson, rt. hon.W. Hutchinson, hon. C. Hartopp, G. Kennedy, T. F. Kingsborough, visc. Lamb, hon. W. Lambton, J. G. Latouche, Robt. Legge, hon. II. Palmer, C. F. Palmerston visc. Pares, Thos. Parnell, sir H. Pierce, H. Philips, Geo. R. Plunkett, rt. hon. W. Ridley, sir M. W. Russell, lord W. Russell, R. G. Scott, James Sebright, sir J. Sefton, earl of Clifford, capt. Cocks, J. S. Coffin, sir I. Joliffe, Hylton Courtenay, W. Johnson, C. Courtenay, T. P. Crompton, Saml. Crosby, J. Creevey, Thos. Daly, J. Dawson, J. M. Denison, W. J. Lennard, T. B. Denman, T. Lewis, T.F. Douglas, W. K. Lloyd, sir E. Doveton, G. Lloyd, J. M. Dundas, hon. T. Lloyd, Sam. Dundas, Charles Lushington, Steph. Apsley, lord Archdale, M. Dunlop, J. Lawley, F. Ashurst, Wm. Metcalfe, H. Astell, Wm. Don, sir A. Dunally, lord Ellice, Edw. Ellis, C. Rose Ellis, hon. G. A. Maberly, W. L. Macdonald, Jas. Mackintosh, sir J. Smythe, J. H. Somerville, sir M. Stanley, lord A'Court, E. H. Alexander, J. Warrender, sir G. Western, C. C. Wharton, J. Whitbread, S. C Whitbread, W. H. White, Luke Williams, J, P. Wilson, sir R. Wortley. J. S. Wynn, sir W. W. Wynn, C. W. Wyvill, M. TELLERS. Freemantle, W. Belgrave, lord Crespigny, sir W, D. Evelyn, L. Lester, B. L. Newport, rt. hon.sir J. Phipps, hon. Ed. Pryse, Pryse Ramsden, J. C. Tavistock, marq. Wilkins, Walter to those points that bore on education in cation, and a knowledge of the principles Ireland. The state of that country was of the constitution, to a large body, if not little known to many members; and he to the whole, of the population of Ireland. might therefore be excused for stating There was also the Foundling Hospital, some facts, an acquaintance with which Dublin, a well-known charity, of which was necessary to enable the House to the funds amounted to 32,000l. annually, form a correct judgment on the present and the number of children educated and question. Previously to the 43rd year of brought up there was only 2,000. There his late majesty's reign, two commissions were also 33 endowed classical schools, had sat in Ireland on the subject of edu- with annual funds of 9,000l. and which cation, and had made no fewer than 14 supported only 1,000 scholars, Indereports, full of interesting matter; but out pendently of these charitable institutions, of those reports, no practical measure had there were no less than 3,776 schools arisen. In the 43rd of his late majesty, spread over Ireland, containing scholars another commission was appointed, which to the number of 253,000 children. He made 7 reports; but still, notwithstanding stated these facts to show, that there exthe recommendations contained in these isted in that country a very great disposi21 reports, nothing had been done for the tion to instruct the lower orders, and on promotion of education in that country. their part an extreme avidity to be inHe did not deny that great exertions had structed. He did not mean to impute been made by individuals, as well as by blame to the second commission appointed societies; but as yet no practical step had under the late reign to inquire into the been taken to establish a general system situation of these charities; but he did of education. Perhaps the House would mean to say, that no actual good, no po be very much surprised when he stated sitive and beneficial measure, had followto them, under a few general heads, the ed upon the termination of their labours. magnitude of the sums at present applica- His ultimate object was, to move, that the ble to the purposes of education in that papers which were the subject of his precountry. There were in Ireland 70 schools sent motion should, together with the reon royal endowment, possessing annual ports to which he had adverted, be laid funds of upwards of 8,000l.; 4 classical before a committee of the House. The schools, under the endowment of Eras- total amount of the funds of different mus Smith, with funds amounting to schools in Ireland, which might be 4,000l.; 20 diocesan schools, with large made available to the general purposes revenues; and 15 classical schools, two of education, was more than 173,000l. per of which possessed funds of 1,4651. a annum. This motion he should submit in year in landed property. There were, the early part of the next session; and he besides these, many schools for instruc- begged to say that he should then tion in the English language, on private lay before the House no speculative foundations, which had enormous funds, notions on the great subject of education but in which the number of scholars was in Ireland, but endeavour to propose some totally disproportioned to the great amount immediately and practically efficacious of the funds. There was also another des- measure. At present he would move for cription of schools possessing large funds," An Account of the Funds and Reveand which were peculiarly applicable to the education of the lower classes: he meant charter-schools, of which there were 39. Of these, the total annual grants amounted to 29,2837. and the total annual disbursements to 40,1831. The principle on which these schools were founded was totally distinct from all religious opinions; but he was sorry to say that the education of the poor was thwarted and limited in every possible manner in the Protestant schools, by their being required to renounce the Catholic principles before they are admitted. The sums possessed by all these schools, if properly applied, would be sufficient to extend edu nues of all schools on public or charitable foundations in Ireland, as far as they have been reported on by the commissioners for inquiring into the state of such schools; distinguishing the sources from which such funds and revenues are derived, and the number of scholars instructed in such schools respectively:" Also, "A statement, showing what measures have been taken for carrying into effect the improvements recommended by the said commissioners." Mr. C. Grant observed, that the greatest credit was due to the labours of those commissioners, of the results of whose exertions the right hon. gentleman spoke so |