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indeed conceive why the Catholics should magnitude and importance of the present consider it of great importance; because, to hang about the government in an unas the right hon. gentleman had observed, settled state. He had not understood, as it was natural for them to feel great in his right hon. friend seemed to liave done, terest in being excluded from those offices that the right hon. mover had looked and honours which were open to the at- upon the question as one of right. If he tainment of others, and in being con- had so done, he must differ from him, for sidered, under the circumstances of the he looked upon the question of admissiconstitution, not as dissenters, but as bility as one which must be decided by Catholics. Still, however, the question the necessity of the case. He was fully at issue certainly did not appear to him prepared to maintain the right of the state to involve that degree of advantage on the to abridge the liberty of the subject, where one side, and of danger on the other, that was found to be necessary for the which ought to provoke the warmth that general benefit; and this he held to be at present existed. He could not con particularly applicable to the ecclesiastical ceive how that mind was constructed part of the state ; but he did not think which convinced itself of danger arising that necessity now existed for the ex. from the equality of Protestants and Ca- clusion of the Roman Catholics. The tholics, or which could have any other ob- Roman Catholic was not placed on the jections to the establishment of that footing of dissenters from the Church of equality than a repugnance to change of England in general; this was a marked every kind. He could not persuade him- and particular exclusion, and for which self, if this concession were made to. he could no reasonable ground morrow, that it could bring the Catholics in the present state of the country. any accession of power, and he thought -The noble lord then proceeded to show, that the right hon. gentleman had stated that there was nothing in the state of this point more strongly than was borne this country of of Europe, which could out by the truth. Stress might be laid justify the continued exclusion of the on the numbers of the Roman Catholics, Roman Catholics from taking that station and the danger which might be appre- in society which their growing prosperity hended from that circumstance if ever had entitled them to ; and that the apprethey should attain any considerable in- hension of future danger from their increase of political power ; but if we creased power, was not a sufficient justilooked to other parts of the empire, and fication for their exclusion. In France, saw their numbers, greater out of all pro- in the Netherlands, in Holland, and even portion, we could not for a moment en- in Germany, no such regulation was tertain any idea of danger to the consti- allowed. The treaty of Westphalia had tution from the numerical strength of the contributed to eradicate such distinctions; Roman Catholics, if they had the means and it was not therefore strange, that at or the inclination-neither of which he the last congress at Vienna the only thing admitted—to turn their strength against which had been unanimously agreed upon the interests of the country. He would was, that the distinctions of religion should put it to the House, whether, considering not be considered as a bar to the advanceihe nice balance of opinion in that and ment of any man to a situation which he the other House of Parliament upon this might be capable of filling properly. He question, it was a subject which ought to appealed to the House whether such dis. be suffered to hang about them in an un- tinctions ought to be supported in this settled state ? Looking at the present, free country. Not even in Hungary, and what might be the future state of Eu- where the Roman Catholic religion was rope, he would ask whether such aquestion, the established one, was the difference of calculated as it was to create considerable religious sentiments held to be injurious embarrasment, ought to remain perma- to any persons in their political conduct. nently unsettled ? Giving every credit The reasoning of his hon. friend founded to his right hon. friend for the candid and upon the practice of Hamburgh and of honourable manner in which he had dis Sweden, ought not to be looked upon by cussed this question, yet he could not the House as conclusive. Those concesagree with him, that in the fear of future sions which he considered as fitted to be possible danger to the country, or even in granted to the Roman Catholics ought to the fear of a danger of our having a Catholic originate in a spirit of liberality; and he king, we ought to allow a question of the was proud to say, that of all the different religious divisions of the world, there was, internal state of the country, than the not one more disposed to liberality than connexion of the Catholic clergy with the the Church of England. Wher, he applied government of the country. It was imthis principle to Ireland, he saw the possible that it should be effected whilst strongest reason for supporting it. He the great body of the Catholics remained would not have it understood that the in their present state of exclusion. What question of Catholic emancipation was they wanted was, to make the law ever held out to Ireland as a pledge for respected in Ireland—to make it effective. the union of that country with England. But he knew that government never It was distinctly understood that that could have the same authority, or enforce question was to be left entirely to the its authority with due effect, whilst this discretion of the legislature. Looking, exclusive system was continued. If the however, to the situation of Ireland, he House should consent to go into the maintained, that the only practical mode committee, he would do every thing in of effectually putting an end to the em- his power to forward the ineasure, bebarrassments which were met in the go- cause it was his conviction that until it vernment of Ireland would be, by removing was carried, a great defect would remain the discontents arising from the present in the security and harmony of the emsituation of the Roman Catliolics. He pire. would declare, that they could never ex. Mr. Martin, of Galway, begged to pect to settle the differences which existed oppose to the theory of the right in Ireland, and to apply to that country hon. member for Oxford something that the remedies which its internal condition flowed on his mind from experience. Inrequired, until this question was finally stances as likcly to excite the Catholics and amicably adjusted. He felt that the against the Protestants, had occurred, as established "church in Ireland should be any that might be expected to rouse the supported at all risks ; for if ever attempts Protestants against the Catholics ; but were made against it (which he could the result had been satisfactory. The not anticipate as a result of the present Derry Journal being prosecuted by the measure), force must be opposed to force, Catholics for a libel, a Catholic jury had and such attempts would be put down ; given a verdict against a Catholic priest, but he conceived that that church might and when Mr. O'Gorman brought_ap be sufficiently protected, not indeed by action against the Dublin Evening Post making the Catholic religion the es- for calling him “ a dishonourable blocktablished religion of Ireland, but by head,” what did the jury tell him? Why affording to it the same protection as to they told him, that he was entitled to every other class of dissenters. With sixpence damages. This served to prove, respect to the making a provision for the that Catholics were bound by their oaths, Catholic clergy of Ireland, he would say, and ready to perform their duty. He that if that had been done before now, should certainly vote for going into the the internal situation of that country committee. If they wished to withdrawy would be very different from what it was all the benefits that had been conferred at the present day. He had submitted a on the Catholics, they might consistently proposition of this kind to the heads of negative the present motion ; but having ihe Catholic clergy, under the adminis- paid 9991. and obtained no receipt, if tration of lord Sidmouth, then Mr. paying another shilling would procure the Addington, and he was informed, that receipt, it would be wisdom for such an however liberal the offers which were object to make so small an additional samade might be, the measure could not be crifice. carried while the lay part of that religion The House divided : Ayes 227. Noes remained excluded from the privileges 221. Majority in favour of the motion which they so earnestly hoped for. He 6. thought the government acted wisely on that occasion. Nothing, he conceived,

List of the Majority; and also of the would contribute more to improve the

Minority. state of Ireland, than such an arrange

MAJORITY. ment. He did not mean that the clergy Abercromby, hun. J. Althorp, visc. should be placed in a state of subserviency Acland, sir T.

Anson, sir G. to the government ; but that no measure Alexander, Jos.

Anson, hon. G. could be more calculated to improve the Allen, J.H.

Arbuthnot, rt.Hon.C.

Brandling, C. J. Ellison, C.

Mahon, hon. S. Stuart, lord J.
Baillie, J.
Evans, Wm.

Marjoribanks, s. Sykes, Daniel
Bagwell, rt. hon. W. Farrand, Robt. Martin, John

Staunton, sir G. Barham, J. F. Farquharson, A. Martin, R.

Talbot, R. W. Barham, J. F. jun. Fergusson, sir R. Mildmay, hon, P.St.J. Taylor, M. A. Baring, sir Thos. Fitzgerald, lord W.

Milton, visc.

Tennyson, C. Baring, Alex.

Fitzgerald, rt. hon.M. Monck, J. B. Tierney, rt. hon. G, Barnard, visc. Fitzgibbon, hon. R. Money, W.T. Twiss, H. Barratt, S. M.

Fitzroy, lord J. Moore, Peter Upton, hon. A. Beaumont, T. W. Fitzroy, lord C. :

Moore, Abraham Vernon, G. Bective, earl of Fleming, J.

Morland, S. B. Wilmot, Robt. Becher, W.W. Forbes, lord

Mostyn, sir T. Wall, C. B. Bennet, hon. H. G. Frankland, R.

Neville, hon. R. Ward, hon. W. Bentinck, lord W. French, A.

Nugent, lord

Warre, J. A.
Benyun, Ben.
Finch, G

Nugent, sir G. Warrender, sir G, Blake, sir F.

Gladstone, John O'Callaghan, Jas. Western, C.C.
Binning, lord

Gaskell, Ben. O'Grady, Standish Wharton, J.
Birch, J.
Glenorchy, visc. Ord, w.

Whitbread, S. C
Blair, J. H.

Gordon, Robt. Palmer, C. F. Whitbread, W. H.
Browne, D.
Graham, s.

Palmerston visc. White, Luke
Browne, P.
Grant, C.
Pares, Thos.

Whitmore, W.
Browne, J.
Grant, J.P.

Parnell, sir H. Williams, J, P.
Browne, Dom.
Grant, J. M.
Pierce, H.

Wilson, sir R.
Broadhead, T.
Grant, F. W.

Phillimore, Dr. Wood, Ald.
Bury, visc.
Grattan, J.
Philips, G.

Wortley. J. S.
Benett, John
Grenfell, Pascoe Philips, Geo. R. Wy

ynn, sir W. W. Butler, hon. C. W. Griffiths, J. W

Plunkett, rt. hon. W. Wynn, C. W.
Byng, George Holdsworth, T. Pole, rt. hon. W.W. Wyvill, M.
Calthorpe, hon. F. Harvey, C.

Ponsonby, hon. F.C. TELLERS.
Calcraft, j.
Hamilton, lord A. Power, R.

Duncannon, visc, Calvert, c.

Hamilton sir H. D. Powleit, hon. W. Freemantle, W.
Calvert, N.
Hamilton, Hans Prendergast, J. S.

PAIRED OFF. Campbell, hon. J. Harbord, hon. Ed. Price, Robt.

Belgrave, lord
Carew, R.S.
Harding, sir H. Pringle, sir W.

Bourne, rt. hon. S. Cavendish, lord G. Heathcote, G. J. Pym, Francis

Colthurst, sir N. Cavendish, H. Hill, lord A.

Plumber, John Crespigny, sir W.D. Cavendish, Charles Hobhouse, J. C. Ramsay, sir A. Croker, J. W. Carter, John Honywood, W. P. Rice, T.S.

Cumming G.
Castlereagh, lord Hornby, E.

Ridley, sir M. W. Curwen J.C.
Caulfield, hon. H. Howard, hon, W. Robinson, sir G.
Chichester, A.

Ebrington, lord
Howard, hon. F. G.

Robinson, rt. hon. F. Evelyn, L.
Cliston, visc.
Hughes, W.L. Rowley, sir F.

Guise, sir W.
Hume, Jos.

Rumbold, c.
Cocks, J.S.

Gurney, Hudson Hurst, Robt.

Russell, lord W. Lester, B. L.
Coffin, sir I.

Huskisson, rt. hon.W. Russell, R. G. Maule, hon. W.
Coke, T. W.
Hutchinson, hon. C. Scott, James

Maxwell, John
Colborne, N. R. Hartopp, G.

Sebright, sir J. Newport, rt. hon.sir J. Concannon, L.

Joliffe, Hylton Sefton, earl of
Courtenay, w.

Phipps, hon. Ed.
Johnson, C.
Shaw, R.

Pryse, Pryse
Courtenay, T. P. Kennedy, T. F. Smith, Geo.

Ramsden, J.C. Crompton, Saml. Kingsborough, visc. Smith, J.

Russell, lord John Crosby, J. Lamb, hon. W. Smith, w.

Scarlett, John
Creevey, Thos. Lambton, J. G. Smith, Robt.

Scudamore, R.
Daly, J.
Latouche, Róbt.
Smythe, J. H.

Tavistock, marq. Dawson, J. M.

Legge, hon. II. Somerville, sir M. Denison, W.J. Lennard, T. B. Stanley, lord

Wilkins, Walter
Denman, T.
Lewis, T.F.

Stewart, A. K.
Douglas, w.K. Lloyd, sir E.
Doveton, G.
Lloyd,.J. N.

Dundas, hon. T. Lloyd, Sam.

Apsley, lord

Ancram, lord
Dundas, Charles Lushington, Steph. Archdale, M.

Bankes, H.
Dunlop, J.
Lawley, F.

Ashurst, Wm.
Don, sir A.

Bankes, G,
Metcalfe, H.
Astell, Win.

Bathurst, rt. hon. B.
Dunally, lord · Mackenzie, T. Astley, J. D.
Ellice, Edw.

Bathurst, hon, S. Maberly, W.L. Attwood, M.

Beckett, tt. hon. J. Ellis, C. Rose Macdonald, Jas. A'Court, E. H. Ellis, lun. G. A.

Bent, John Mackintosh, sir J. Alexander, J. Bentinck, lord, F.

Chifford, capt.

Tichfield, marq.

Beresford, sir J. Fetherston, sir T. Pechel, sir Thos. Thompson, W.
Beresford, lord G.
Fleming, John Peel, rt. hon. R.

Ure, M.
Bernard, lord
Folkes, sir M.
Peel, w.

Valletort, lord
Blackburne, John Fox, G. Lane

Pellew, hon. P. B. Vansittart, rt. hon. N. Blair, J. Fynes, H. Penruddock,-.

Vivian, sir H. Bouverie, hon. B. Gascoyne, J.

Pitt, W.M.

Webbe, Ed.
Brogden, J.
Gifford, sir R.
Pitt, J.

Wallace, rt. hon. T. Brownlow, c.

Gilbert, D.G. Pollen, sir John Westenra, hon. H. Brudenell, lord

Graham, sir J. Portman, E. B. Wells, John
Bright, H.
Grant, A. C.

Powell, sir J. K. Wemyss, J.
Bruce, Rt.

Greville, sir C. Price, Richard Wetherell, c.
Burrell, sir C.
Gossett, w.

Paxton, W.G. Whitmore, Thos. Burrell, Walter Grosvenor, D. Pearse, John

Wigram, W.
Buxton, J.J.
Handley, H.

Pole, sir Peler Wilbraham, E. B.
Claughton, Thos.
Hart, General
Rogers, E.

Wildman, J.
Calvert, John
Harvey, sir E.
Robarts, Ab.

Williams, Robt.
Cawthorne, J. F. Hill, sir G.

Rice, hon. G. Wilson, T. Cecil, lord T.

Holford, G, P. Ricketts, C. M. Wodehouse, hon. J. Chaplin, C. Holmes, W.

Rickford, Wm. Wodehouse, Ed. Cheere, E.M. Hotham, lord Robertson, A. Wilson, sir H. Childe, W.L. Heygate, Ald.

Russell, J. w. Wyndham, W. Cholmeley, sir M. Hodson, J.A.

Raine, J.

Clerk, sir G.
Inpes, John
Ray, sir W.

Dawson, G.
Clements, hon. J. Jenkinson, hon. C. Scott, hon. W. Long, sir C.
Clinton, sir W. Jervoise, G. P. Scolt, s.

PAIRED OFT. Clive, hon, R. H. Irving, John

Seymour, Hugh Bradshaw, T. H.
Clive, Henry
Knox, hon. Thos.

Seymour, Horace Campbell, A.
Cockerell, sir c. Keck, G. A. L. Shelley, sir John Cartwright, R.
Cole, sir Chris. Kinnersley, W. Shiffner, sir G. Clive, lord
Cole, sir L.
Knatchbull, sir E. Smith, T. A.

Dent, John.
Collet, E.
Langston, J. H. Smith C.

Estcourt, T.G.
Congreve, sir W. Lemon, sir W. Smith, S.

Goulburn, H. Copley, sir John Lenox, lord G

Sneyd, N.

Lockhart, J.J.
Cotterell, sir John Leslie, C. P.

Somerset, lord G. Lowther, John
Corbett, P.
Leigh, J. H.

Somerset, lord E. Luttrell, John
Cranbourne, lord
Leagh, F.
Stewart, W.

Montgomery, J.
Crawley, Sam. Lewis, w.

Strathaven, lord Newman, Rt. Cripps, J.

Lethbridge, sir T. St. Paul, sir H. Nicholl, sir Jobn Curtis, sir W.

Lindsay, hon. H. Stopford, lord Noel, sir G.
Curleis, J. H.
Lowther, visc. Strutt, J. H.

Northey, W.
Curzon, hon. Rt. Lowther, hon. H.C. Sumner, G. Holme Powell, Ed.
Cust, hon. W.
Lowther, J. H. Suttie, sir J.

Ryder, hon. R.
Cust, hon. E.
Lucy, G.

Stewart, sir John Scott, sir W.
Cust, hon. P.

Lushington, S. R. Taylor, sir H. Swann, H. Cooper, R. B. Luttrell, H.

Taylor, G, W. Ward, Robert. Dickinson, W. Mabcrly, John Thynne, lord John Walker, S. Dalrymple, A. Macknagblen, E. A. Townshend, lord C.

Worcester, marq. Davenport, D. Magennis, R. Townshend, hon. H. Wynne, Owen Davies, T. H Manners, lord R.

Tremayne, J. H. Yarmouth, earl
Dawkins. H.

Manners, lord C. Tulk, C. A.
Deerhurst, lord Mansfield, John
Divett, Thomas Martin, sir T. B.
Dodson, D.
Mills, c.

Douglas, John Mitchell, John
Dowdeswell, J. E.

Thursday, March 1.
Monteith, H.
Downie, Rt.
Morgan, sir c.


Morgan, G. G. Mr. M. Fitzgerald rose to submit the mo. Drake, W.T.

Munday, E. M. tion of which he had given notice relative Dugdale, D. Munday, G.

to the Education of the lower Orders in Egerton, W.

Musgrove, sir P. Ireland. The subject of education in geElliot, hon. W. Mountcharles, earl

neral had already been so largely canvas. Ellis, Thos.

Nightingale, sir M. Fairlie, sir W.C. Ommaney, sir F.

sed, and, as far as it related to England, Fane, John O'Neil, hon. J.

had been so ably illustrated by his hon. Fane, Vere Onslow, Arthur

and learned friend (Mr. Brougham); that Fane, Thos.

Pakenham, hon. H. it would be presumptuous in him to do any FeHowes, W. H. Palk, sir L.

more on the present occasion than allude to those points that bore on education in cation, and a knowledge of the principles Ireland." The state of that country was of the constitution, to a large body, if not little known to many members; and he to the whole, of the population of Ireland. might therefore be excused for stating There was also the Foundling Hospital, some facts, an acquaintance with which Dublin, a well-known charity, of which was necessary to enable the House to the funds amounted to 32,0001. annually, form a correct judgment on the present and the number of children educated and question. Previously to the 43rd year of brought up there was only 2,000. There his late majesty's reign, two commissions were also 33 endowed classical schools, had sat in Ireland on the subject of edu- with annual funds of 9,000l. and which cation, and had made no fewer than 14 supported only 1,000 scholars, Indereports, full of interesting matter ; but out pendently of these charitable institutions, of those reports, no practical measure had there were no less than 3,776 schools arisen. In the 43rd of his late majesty, spread over Ireland, containing scholars another commission was appointed, which to the number of 253,000 children. He made 7 reports ; but still, notwithstanding stated these facts to show, that there exthe recommendations contained in these isted in that country a very great disposi21 reports, nothing had been done for the tion to instruct the lower orders, and on promotion of education in that country. their part an extreme avidity to be inHe did not deny that great exertions had structed. He did not mean to impute been made by individuals, as well as by blame to the second commission appointed societies; but as yet no practical step had under the late reign to inquire into the been taken to establish a general system situation of these charities; but he did of education. Perhaps the House would mean to say, that no actual good, no po. be very much surprised when he stated sitive and beneficial measure, had followto them, under a few general heads, the ed upon the termination of their labours. magnitude of the sums at present applica- | His ultimate object was, to move, that the ble to the purposes of education in that papers which were the subject of his precountry. There were in Ireland 70 schools sent motion should, together with the reon royal endowment, possessing annual ports to which he had adverted, be laid funds of upwards of 8,000l. ; 4° classical before a committee of the House. The schools, under the endowment of Eras- total amount of the funds of different mus Smith, with funds amounting to schools in Ireland, which might be 4,0001.; 20 diocesan schools, with large made available to the general purposes revenues; and 15 classical schools, two of education, was more than 173,0001. per of which possessed funds of 1,465l. a

This motion he should submit in year in landed property. There were, the early part of the next session ; and he besides these, many schools for instruc- begged to say that he should then tion in the English language, on private lay before the House no speculative foundations, which had enormous funds, notions on the great subject of education but in which the number of scholars was in Ireland, but endeavour to propose some totally disproportioned to the great amount immediately and practically efficacious of the funds. There was also another des measure. At present he would move for cription of schools possessing large funds, "An Account of the Funds and Reveand which were peculiarly applicable to nues of all schools on public or charitable the education of the lower classes : he foundations in Ireland, as far as they have meant charter-schools, of which there been reported on by the commissioners for were 39. Of these, the total anaual grants inquiring into the state of such schools ; disamounted to 29,283l. and the total annual tinguishing the sources from which such disbursements to 40,1831. The principle funds and revenues are derived, and the on which these schools were founded was number of scholars instructed in such totally distinct from all religious opi- schools respectively:" Also, “ A statenions ; but he was sorry to say that the ment, showing what measures have been education of the poor was thwarted and li- taken for carrying into effect the improvemited in every possible manner in the ments recommended by the said commisProtestant schools, by their being requir- sioners." ed to renounce the Catholic principles Mr. C. Grant observed, that the greatbefore they are admitted. The sums pos- est credit was due to the labours of those sessed by all these schools, if properly ap- commissioners, of the results of whose explied, would be sufficient to extend edu. ertions the right hon. gentleman epoke so


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