1681.

gainst any other Bill, that will be fufficient to keep him from Anno 32Car.la the Government, if fome fuch Bill or Bills could be contrived, as against the Bill of Exclufion: But the truth is, there can be no other Bill that can ferve us in this cafe, because all other Bills will leave us in that miserable condition of opposing our lawful King, and all Oppofition in fuch a cafe, would be liable to be conftrued a Rebellion. All other Bills in this cafe would be no more for the Security of our Religion, than a great many Leafes, Releases, and other Writings, are in many Cafes of Eftates, without Fines and Recoveries. However, I am against the Vote that was propofed, That the Duke's being a Papist hath rendred him uncapable of the Crown: For that were to take on us a legiflative Power; but let your Question be, That it is the opinion of this Houfe, that the King's Perfon, and Proteftant Religion, cannot be fecure without that Bill: That fo the Proceedings of the Houfe may be juftified, in demanding that Bill hereafter, though we thould in the mean time go on with any other Bills.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I shall not trouble you with any Ar- Daniel Finch. gument, whether the Proteftant Religion can be preferved under a Popish King; or whether an Act of Exclusion will be a good Act or no, or whether the Exclufion-Bill alone, if it should be granted, would be fufficient, or what others we fhould need; but the Question is at prefent, whether, feeing we cannot have this Bill, we shall not aim at fomething else, that fo, if poffible, we may prevent the Breaking up of this Parliament, without any effect, as to the great things they were fummoned for, on which I cannot reflect without being much concerned; and I am afraid that it will be the confequence of perfifting for this Bill. I cannot be perfuaded, notwithstanding all that hath been faid, but that there are other Bills that may attain our End, or at least do us fome good. And we have no certain demonftration that this Bill, if we fhould obtain it, will infallibly do what is defired. The Acts made in Queen Elizabeth's Days did not fupprefs that Party totally: Though the Queen of Scots was cut off, yet that Intereft continued, and even to this Day remains, and fo it may probably though we fhould get this Bill; and therefore why fhould we stand so much in our own Light, as not to take what we can get? The Bill of Banishment may be of great Ufe, and fome Bills to limit the Power of fuch a Prince, by putting the Power in Parliaments and Privy Counsellors; why fhould we lofe all by being fo eager for that we are never like to get? And therefore, I humbly conceive, we may do better to go on with fuch other Bills as may be thought convenient, and not ftruggle nor perfift for the obtaining of this."

'Mr.

Anno 32 Car. II. 1681.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not for adventuring my Life upon Rhetoric, which is all I can find there is in the Dif courfes that are made for Expedients. We all know that J. B. (perhaps little Thing altered the Government in France, and reduced

Baffet.)

the People of that Kingdom to Slavery: Pray let us have a
care that, for want of a little fhort Act, we be not reduced
to Slavery and Popery too. Will not all the Expedients
that have been talked of, or can be imagined, leave us to
conteft with our lawful Prince, and that Affiftance which
he is well affured of, not only from the Papifts here, but in
Ireland, and from France and Scotland, I am afraid, enough
to make it a measuring Caft? And is the Proteftant Intereft fo
low, that though our Dangers be fo great, inftead of a Sword
to defend ourselves, we must be content with a Sheath? I am
not for cheating those that fent me here: I think it much more
for the Intereft of the Nation, that we fhould have no Laws,
than fuch as will but trepan us, by failing us like rotten
Crutches when we have Occafion to depend on them; I had
rather lofe my Life and my Religion, because I were not
able to defend them, than be fooled out of them by depend-
ing on fuch Laws. I take it for granted, that feeing the
Exclufion-Bill is thought too much for us, and fuch great
Endeavours are used to preferve the Strength and Intereft
of that Party, that we muft either fubmit, or defend our Re-
ligion by a fharp Conteft; and therefore I hope we shall
not depend on Laws that will tend to weaken us.
I am
confident, that if fome Minifters of State did not ftand as
Clouds between the King and us, we should have Redress.
For how can it confift with his Goodnefs or Coronation-
Oath, that for the Intereft of one Man, the Bodies and
Souls of the reft of his Subjects fhould be in fuch Danger
of perifhing, as they are in cafe of his Death, if a Popish
King fhould fucceed, and fuch Popish Counsellors, Judges,
Juftices, and Bifhops too, as we had in Queen Mary's days?
For it cannot be doubted, but that thofe that will be fo
loyal as to bring him in, will be fo loyal, at it will be called,
to obey him in all things which may be for his Interest.
And the fame Argument, which Queen Mary used, will fup-
ply the Defect of all Laws, that the Execution of all Ec-
clefiaftical Laws may be fufpended by force, but could never
be repealed by the Power of Parliaments; and therefore
commanded, that notwithstanding all Laws to the contrary,
they fhould be executed as in the beginning of her Father's
Reign. The great Endeavours that are used to ridicule the
Plot, arraign Parliaments, and divide the Proteftant Interest,
is a full Confirmation to me, that the Plot goeth on as much
as ever. And how can it be otherwife, unless we can get
the King of our Side, that fo he may be more for us than

he

1681.

he is for the Duke, without which it is impoffible that the Anno 32 Car.Ik Proteftant Intereft can ftand long. In order to do fomething, I am ready to agree in the Votes that have been made.'

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is clear to me, that all Expedients without this Bill cannot fignify any thing for our defence against Popery. All our Difficulty will be, to fatisfy his Majefty, that nothing else can fave his People from the Popish Bondage. And if we could do that, I do not doubt but he will rather pafs, the Bill, than let three Nations perish. The King doth now rely on the Judgment of the Lords in the Matter, yet haply will find upon an Information, that he hath no good Ground fo to do. For, I believe, if he would ask the Lords why they were of that Opinion, many of them would tell him, because he was of that Opinion, and because they were awed by his Prefence. And seeing the Lords are changed from the Time of the throwing our of that Bill, from 33 to 55; fo they may probably change more against the Bill comes to them again. And I am confident will do fo when they have confulted their Intereft, and have found that all other Ways to fecure the Proteftant Religion are either impoffible or impracticable. At leaft, I am confident they will not throw it out again, without a Conference. And it is my Opinion, there wants nothing but a Conference to have an Agreement with the Lords; in the mean time, that they may have Occafion to confider better of it, let us by a Vote declare our Refolution to stick to the Bill.'

G. V.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, by the Debate which you have had Sir William about Expedients, it plainly appears, that the Popish Interest Pulteney. is fo well fix'd, that we are not like to obtain any thing against it, that will do us any Good. And it is not strange, that we should meet with great Oppofition. For we may reasonably conclude, that thofe, who had the Power to inftil thofe Principles into the Royal Family, have not been negligent to improve their Intereft, to fecure thofe Advantages they have long hoped for, and expected, from fuch a Profelyte. And therefore those Arguments which fome worthy Members have ufed, as to the Improbability that ever a Popish King fhould attempt to change our Religion, as not confifting with his Intereft, are to me very prepofterous, and a great Demonftration of the Influence of that Party, in being able to broach fuch Opinions, as are fo ufeful to bring in that Religion. For my part, I am of a different Judgment, and do believe, that a Popish Head on a Proteftant Body, would be fuch a Monster in Nature, as would neither be fit to preferve, or be preserved; and that therefore it would as naturally follow, as Night follows Day, that either the Head will change the Body, or the Body the

Head.

168.1.

Anno 32 Car.II. Head. Have we not already had fufficient Experience, what a miferable thing it is for the King to be jealous of his People, or the People of their Prince? Can it be imagined that there can be a Popish King in this Nation, without occafioning a conftant Noife of Plots and Popery, and that such Reports, grounded on the King's Inclinations, will not occafion fuch a Fermentation in the People, as will end in Mifery? Or, if it should prove otherwife, that by fuch Arts as may probably then be fet on foot, the People should be lulled into a Security? Can we think that the Papifts, who have been fo many Ages at work for the Opportunity, fhould not take Advantage of that Security, to fetter us with their Popish Bondage? We may as well think that they will all then turn Proteftants, or be true to the Proteftant Intereft. No, Sir, their great Design of having a Popish Succeffor was in order to bring in Popery. And we may conclude, they will heartily and earnestly purfue it, whenever they fhall have a Popish King. And therefore, I think, it will never become the Prudence of this Houfe, to defift from endeavouring to get the Exclufion-Bill, which is the only Remedy that can be in this Cafe, that we may have a Right to defend ourfelves and our Religion against a Popifh Succeffor, without which, this Nation will be in Time ruined. And therefore I humbly move you, that we pass thofe Votes that have been proposed.

Sir Francis
Winnington.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have confidered this Meffage with that Duty and Refpect I ought; it doth fo agree with all others which his Majefty hath been pleased to send to this Parliament, that I do believe that all proceed from the fame Council, and that our Endeavours to prevail with his Majefty, in that Particular of changing Councils, hath hitherto had no Effect. The King is pleased to say, that he is confirmed in his Opinion as to the Bill, by the House of Lords having rejected it; I admire how the King fhould know it in a Parliamentary way, fo as to intimate fo much to this Houfe. Probably he might be prefent, as he hath generally been, ever fince my Lord Clifford had fo great a Share in the Management of the Affairs of this Kingdom. And how Things have gone the e fince, we all know. I do not doubt but his Majefty takes that unparallel'd Trouble of attending there daily, chiefly for the Good of the Proteftant Religion; but I cannot but obferve, that it hath had little Success. For Things, however, have gone with fo much Difficulty against the Popish Party, that it may be a Question, whether his Royal Prefence, or the Influence of a Popifh Succeffor were ftrongeft. The Bill for Papifts taking the Teft, tho' accompanied with a great Sum of Money, pafs'd with much Difficulty, and fo that for excluding the Lords, and not

without

1681.

without an Exception as to his Royal Highnefs: And there- Anno 32Çar.Í. fore we have no great Reafon to admire, that this about the Succeffion fhould be thrown out: And how can we expect it should be otherwife, as long as fo many who fit there are in the poffeffion of great Places by the Duke's means; and fo many others who would come into great Places, which cannot be had but by his means? And how all this together makes an Intereft, may cafily be imagined. Sir, I do not mention these Things without regret; for I know my Distance, and have a great Veneration for the Nobility of this Land; and I know the Lords have their Freedom of Voting, and that there are many fit in the Lords Houfe, who have all the Qualifications neceffary for that great Station. But to fee a Bill of this Im portance treated fo contrary to the ufual Courfe of Parliaments, it is neceffary that we should a little confider what may be the Caufe, in order to regulate our Proceedings for the future: For if nothing muft go in that Houfe against the Duke, I think the Proteftant Religion is like to have little Security from Acts. If the Duke had ever confulted the Books writ by his Grandfather or Father, or their Declarations in Matter's of Religion, he would never have brought thefe Difficulties upon his King and Country. It is ftrange he should aim to get Heaven, by Proceedings to contrary to what his Father attestéd with his Blood. But though he hath neglected to consult his Intereft, I hope we fhall not neglect to confult ours, fir purfuing this Bill, fecing there is no other Remedy: Though I am afraid it is a great Work, and may break many Parliaments, because it is fo like to deftroy all the Papifts Hope's of eftablishing their Religion. However, I will not fear but, God granting the King Life, it may be obtained at laft; unless the Project now a-foot, of reprefenting Parlia ments as dangerous and ufelefs, fhould prevent the meeting of any more: Fór even the old Band of Penfioners could flip their Collars, when Popery came bare-faced before them. It is not to be admired, that, fecing the Jefuits have been a hundred Years at work to rivet their intereft, by getting a Prince of their Religion, they fhould ftruggle hard to preferve it, that fo they may have thofe bleffed Effects they expect from it, which the Succeffion-Bill only can prevent. But it is ftrange, that, after fuch' Difcoveries of the Plot here and in Ireland and the Certainty of our irrecoverable Danger upon the King's Death, that fo many Proteftants should be deluded by that Party, and rather be led by artificial Falf hoods, to their own Deftruction, that by naked Truth, to join in that which only can fave them. For Proteftants to ridicule the Plot, and difparage the Witneffes, though, their Evidence is fo confirmed, that a Man may as well believe that Bread may be made Flesh by Tranfubftantiation, as that the Danger of our Religion is not true, is as ftrange, as to TOME H.

N

believe,