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efpecially their Arraignments of Parliaments, and all that Anno 32 Car. II. fpeak against Popery, as Forty-one-men, and Enemies to the Government, occasion a great Weakness on our fide? I think, Sir, all this put together makes a great Strength for that Party, enough to bring us into Mifery, whatever the Iffue may be. I would now, Sir, give you fome Account how the Proteftants may be able in fuch a Cafe to defend themfelves; but I proteft, Sir, I know not what Defence they will be able to make legally. It is true, Sir, as long as our good King lives, we may live in quiet; but things being thus, are not the Papifts under great Temptations to go on with their old damnable Design, or fet up a new one for the Destruction of the King? And if it fhould fo happen, either by their wicked Counfels, or naturally, I think there is no Way left us to oppofe this Party, but by a Rebellion; and therefore I think we may conclude, that our Lives, Liberties, and Religion, are to terminate with the King's Life.

I confefs, Sir, this is a melancholy Difcourfe, but I am afraid too true; and that the more you confider of it, the more Reafon you will have to believe, that there is fuch a Net fpread to catch poor Proteftants, as cannot fail to do it effectually, whenever the Jefuits fhall be pleased to draw it. And our Condition looks the more difmal, because though King, Lords, and Commons, have fo often declared, that there hath been a damnable, execrable, devilish, hellish, abominable Plot carried on by the Papifts, yet that all Remedies against the like for the future must be denied us; I mean fuch as can fignify any thing: And we must now again be exposed, as we were before the Plot broke out, to all their Barbarities, having only weakned that Party by executing about twenty old Men; but ftrengthened them much more, by having difcouraged all Witneffes from ever revealing more of their Plots, and by the Discoveries they had made of the Strength of their Party, in the ftifling of this Plot. And yet all will not open the Eyes of fome Proteftants, that fo, if poffible, we might be fo happy as to lay our Divifions afide, and join against the common Enemy, without which we muft certainly be ruined.

'And if this be our Cafe, and there be nothing wanting but a Popish King to complete our Mifery, and the Art of Man cannot find out any Way to fecure us against a Popish King, without the Exclufion-Bill; is it not ftrange it fhould be rejected in the Houfe of Lords? I cannot believe that the Fathers of the Church fhould join in that, which must infallibly give Opportunity for the tearing out of the Bowels of their Mother, and deftroying her for ever. If fo, well may we lie down and cry, We have no body to help us but only thou, O God.

Sir, I have troubled you too long, but I hope what I have faid, may be of fome ufe to you in refolving about TOME II.

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Anno 32 Car.11. these Bills that are propofed, though I think they will all come fhort of our Cafe. Seeing you have voted a Bill for the banishing of the Papifts, I think you may do well to try what a bill of Affociation may amount to: But I agree with the Opinion of those worthy Members that have told you, that these things are put upon you, that you may give occafion to thofe that with ill to Parliaments, to argue thereby for your Diffolution; and afterwards to perfuade the People that you went about to diffolve the Foundation of the Government. And therefore I do not expect any good Effect of these Bills.'

Sir Francis Roll.

Sir Henry Capel.

Sir, by the serious Difcourfe which that worthy Member hath made of the Sadnefs and Infecurity of our Condition, we may plainly fee, how, by the Interest of the Duke of York, there is a great Power combined againft us, and that our Condition is irrecoverable, if he fhould come to be King. And therefore, Sir, I defire you would put the Question, upon a Motion that was made a little while fince, that it is the Opinion of this Committee, that, as long as the Papifts have any Hopes of the Duke's fucceeding to the Government of this Nation, the King's Perfon, nor the Proteftant Religion, nor the Government of this Nation, can be fecure.'

Refolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, that as long as the Papifts have any Hopes of the Duke of York's fucceeding the King in the Kingdom of England and Ireland, and Dominions thereunto belonging, the King's Perfon, the Proteftant Religion, and the Lives, Liberties, and Properties of all his Majefty's Proteftant Subjects, are in apparent Danger of being deftroyed.'

Sir, I am of Opinion the Popish Plot goeth on as much as ever, and the Papifts are fo proud of it, that they cannot forbear bragging of their hopes to fee better Days fpeedily. I think, Sir, feeing we are not like for one while to have the Exclufion Bill, we fhall appear neglectful of our Duty, if we do not try what Security can be contrived by an Affociation-Bill: And therefore I humbly pray, that the House may be moved to appoint a Committee, to draw up and bring in a Bill for aflociating all his Majesty's Proteftant Subjects.'

Sir, The Reafon why we are now in this Debate, is becaufe a Negative is pafs'd on our Bill for excluding the Duke of York It is ftrange, feeing the Danger of the Proteftant Religion is fo great, (if there be any Intent to fave it) that the only Bill which could ferve for that end fhould be thought too much. I am of Opinion, that no other Bills can do us any Service at all (for it will be pretended they are all void, becaufe made against the Right and Prerogative of your lawful King) without this Exclufion

1689.

Bill. Yet, feeing his Majefty hath fo often in his Speeches Anno 32 Car.II recommended the Security of the Proteftant Religion by other Ways, I think it is our Duty to try what other Laws can be made, though it be only to give the King and the World Satisfaction, and to enable us the better to judge, whether fuch Speeches proceed from his Majefty's Goodnefs, or from evil Counfel. I muft confefs, Sir, I am afraid, (feeing the Duke of York's Intereft is now as great at Court as ever, and that there are so many of the Privy Counsellors for him, as well as moft others in Places of Trust and Command) that they that advife the King to put in that Limitation in all his Speeches, do know, that without that Law there can be none made that can prejudice the Duke's Intereft, and fo confequently not fave the Proteftant Religion, and therefore they advife it. For how can we reafonably prefume otherways, feeing his Intereft is fo fix'd as it is, and the Wheel within the Wheel continues, which hath been fo often complained of. When I ponderate on the good things his Majefty always doth, when he is pleased to exclude the corrupt Politics, and Advice of others, I cannot but lament afresh our great Misfortune in having a Popish Succeffor, that fhould be able to create fuch an Intereft, as to hinder us from the good Effect thereof. His Majefty did once declare, how fenfible he was of the Inconvenience of being advised by private Cabals, and feemed refolved to difmifs them; and from that Time forward to advife with his Privy-Council, and in Cafes extraordinary, with the great Council the Parliament. How he came to vary from that Refolution, I do not know; but I am afraid we fhall not fee any Alteration in favour of the Proteftant Intereft, until we fee fome Change in that Particular. For though the Duke's Friends may do very well to preferve the Duke's Intereft, which upon all Accounts is Popery; yet, I think, they are very inconfiftent with the Prefervation of the Proteftant Intereft: And therefore until fome Alteration is made in Council, as Parliaments have laboured in vain against Popery thefe two Years, fo I am afraid we shall now. However, Sir, I am not against trying what Strength you can make of an Affociation-Bill; but I am afraid, that, without the Exclufion-Bill, you will find your Work endlefs; and that one Bill will occafion another, and all prove to little purpose without it, and that you will but give your Enemies a Handle to reprefent you amifs, and get nothing."

Sir, The many Difcourfes you have heard this day, touching the Strength of the Popish Intereft at home, and how combined with foreign Power, doth not fo much starilè me, as to fee, that all the Strength, upon which the Proteftant Party muft depend for Security, is put into the Hands of Perfons who are for the Duke's Intereft, which we have

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Anno 32 Car. II. Reason to understand to be the fame with Popery; not a Perfon being employed; in any Place of Command or Truft, that ever declared aga nft that Intereft. If I be mistaken in what I fay, I defire to be corrected; I fpeak according to the beft Information I could have, and I believe all here know, what an exact Scrutiny there hath been often made in all Countries and Corporations, for the finding out of Men that way inclined, or otherways fo qualified, as are not fit to make any Oppofition to the Defigns carried on by the Popish Party. And if by Chance any is put in, not fettered either by Opinion or Intereft to that Party, upon the firft Appearance he is prefently discharged, as if he were a Traitor to his Country. And now, after a long Interval of Parliaments, and more and more Discoveries of the Reality and Danger of the Popish Plot, not only here but in Ireland, and of the many Contrivances of that Party to ftifle new Evidence, and to corrupt and difcourage the old, of the certain Ruin of the Proteftant Religion from a Popifh Succeffor and Popifh King, what Remedies are we like to obtain this Seffion? I am afraid very few or none; for I must confefs, I am ftill of Opinion, there can be none without the Exclufion-Bill, which the Lords have thrown out without fo much as a Conference; and therefore I am afraid, that what the Witneffes have faid they were told by feveral Jefuits, is true; That Popery was fo clenched and riveted, that it did not lie in the Power of God, nor Man, to prevent the Settling of it in this Nation. And if we confider what an Intereft that Party hath now at prefent, and how Things are prepared to afford them a greater Affiftance hereafter; how a Popish King, as well as our Divifions and Animofities, will contribute to it, though I hope, God will make them Lyars; yet, I conclude, they have a great deal of Reafon to be very confident. And I fee not how we can help ourfelves, feeing there are fo many Minifters of State about the King, who are as a Partition-wall between him and his People. I find in Coke's Reports, that, when the Nation was in apparent Danger, the People might go directly to the King with their Grievances, and make their Complaints and Petitions known. I think we may do well to confult this Text, and fee if we can find out any better Way than what we have tried already, to convey our humble Supplications to his Royal Perfon. In the mean time, I think you had not beft to go off from the Bill of Affocia tion; for which we have a Precedent in Queen Elizabeth's time, firft made by the Gentry, and afterwards confirmed by Act of Parliament.'

L. Gower.

L

'Sir, I would not discourage you from going on with

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thefe Bills; but I am afraid they will fall far fhort of the Anno 32 Car. II. Power and Strength that will be neceffary, to root out an Intereft that hath been above one hundred Years riveting itfelf by all Arts and Ways imaginable, and hath now fixt itfelf fo near the Throne. I must confefs, I am afraid we are at Labour in vain, and that this Intereft hath so clenched itself, (as the Jefuits term it) that it will break not only this Parliament, but many more, if not all Parliaments, and the Proteftant Religion too. It is too weighty to be removed, or perverted, by fuch little Bills as thefe: No, Sir, you will find, that nothing less than a firm Union amongst all the Proteftants in this Nation can be fufficient to give any Check to this Intereft. As long as there are amongst us fo many Perfons, as know not rightly how to apply the Dangers of the Church and State, nor the Miseries of forty one, but will be led by Popish Projectors, I am afraid such Bills as thefe will not do our Bufinefs: Because they will not deftroy that footing which they have at Court, nor ftrengthen the Proteftant Intereft, which must have its Original from Union. It is ftrange that none but thofe who are for the Duke's Intereft, fhould be the only Perfons thought fit to be in Places of Truft! It is fo ftrange a Way to preferve the Proteftant Church and Religion, that it raifeth with me a Doubt, Whether any fuch thing be defigned. Such Perfons may be proper to manage Affairs in favour of the Popish Intereft; but it is to be admired, that they, and they only, fhould be thought fit to be intrufted with the Proteftant Intereft. I think it as hard for them to do it, as to ferve two Masters. It is not ufual in other Countries, to retain their Enemies in the Government, nor fuch as are Friends to their Enemies; and it is ftrange that we, of all other Nations, fhould fall into this Piece of Policy. But, Sir, for thefe Reafons you may conclude, that, unless what Laws you make be ftrong and well-penned, they will fignify nothing against fo powerful a Party as you have to do with.' Sir, Though it plainly appear, by what hath been faid upon this Debate, that the Proteftant Religion is in a dangerous Condition, yet when I confider how ftrangely God's Providence hath hitherto helped us, and defeated all the wicked Stratagems of this Party, I cannot defpair. Notwithstanding the breaking of the Triple-League, the Dutch-War 1672, and the Affiftance given the French, the Proteftants abroad are not all deftroyed: Neither by their firing of London, endeavours to corrupt Parliaments, and Contrivances against the King's Life, have they yet destroyed all at home. And as I doubt not but the King is willing to fecure the Proteftant Religion to us and ourPofterities,

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