1680.

Anno 32 Car.II. be perfuaded there is no Danger in Popery; and then of what ufe will your banishing or Affociation-Bill be? As long as the Duke hath fo many Friends at Court, (between whofe Intereft and Popery I cannot hear there is any Diftinction) I think no Laws that we can make against Popery will do us any Good, because all the Laws we have already have done us none. For the fame Arts and Power that have hitherto defeated all your other Laws, will alfo defeat what you are. now about. And therefore, Sir, I am of opinion we are not now acting like the true Phyficians of the Nation, but like Mountebanks. For the most we fhall be able to do this Way, is to patch and plaifter up our Sores, and have them hereafter break out incurable upon us. But if you are refolved to go on with thefe Bills that have been propofed, I will not offer to oppofe the Senfe of the Committee, but would move you, (that we may not forget, or lofe in the Croud, that which at laft, I believe, muft be purfued, if ever you will do any Thing for your Religion) that in the firft place you pafs a Vote, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, that as long as the Papifts have any Hopes of the Duke of York's fucceeding the King, the King's Perfon, the Proteftant Religion, and the Lives and Liberties of the People, are in apparent Danger.

Nilas Titus,

་

Sir, I have read that a great Minifter of State of Spain, gave this fhort Advice to a Friend of his that was coming Ambaffador into England; that he should not always aim at the best. I think it may be convenient for us to follow that Advice; for if we should not have fomething for our Security, before we get the beft, I am afraid it may happen to us, as it did to a Man whofe Houfe was befet with Thieves; he was fo long arming his Servants, and appointing them their diftinct Quarters, that the Thieves broke in, and caught them all unprovided. I pray God it may not be our Cafe; though I am very sensible that none of these Bills can effectually do our Business; for nothing can fecure us against this Party, but being free of their Principles as well as of their Perfons; which I conclude will always remain in fome Persons amongst us, notwithstanding your banifhing of Papifts, as long as there is a Popifh Succeffor. For I remember what a great Man of Swedeland told me, that all Laws they could make had never any effect against them, until they not only banished them out of their Country, but fecured the Government in the Hand of Princes of their own Religion; and I am afraid, that nothing less than the fame Way will ever do our Business here. For it is not fo much the Number of Papifts, as their Principles, and the Danger of their getting the Government into their Hands, which we know they have been long aiming at, that may juftly be feared, in which I am perfuaded they

will be fo reftlefs, as that we fhall never be fecure against Anno 32Car.11. them, unless we can banish their Principles from Court,

as well as the People out of the Country."

1680

Sir, what my good Friend that spoke laft hath faid, that Sir Francis we fhould get fomething, and not lofe all, by aiming fo Winnington. earnestly at the beft, is very well, if we were like to get any thing inftead of it, that fhall have the Appearance of being ferviceable in this cafe: But I have feen old Parliamentmen mistaken sometimes, and I am afraid that he will fooner fee this Parliament diffolved, than any thing granted that fhall be material against Popery. And that the mentioning of thefe Bills fhall afterwards arife in Judgment against you; however, I think we must adventure. What this Affociation-Bill may be, I cannot tell, until it be drawn; but I fee no Oppofition made to any of thofe Bills that have been propofed; and I believe there is much Business yet behind for this Day, and that you will do well to husband your time, and put this Business out of your Hands, by put ting the Questions.'

Sir, you have been very well moved for the bringing Sir Richard in of fuch Bills as may tend as much to the Security of the Temple, Proteftant Religion, as any that can be offered. That of Banishment will certainly go a great way to deftroy, not only their Power, but their Intereft and Principles too, and be a great disheartening to their Party abroad. That Intereft will not then have fo many Engines to work with here, as now they have. And the Bill of Affociation will be neceffary, that we may have a Law to defend ourselves. The Affociation made in Queen Elizabeth's Time, will be a good Precedent to draw it up by. And feeing there is no Oppofition, I move you to put the Question.

Refolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, that one Means to fupprefs Popery is, that the House be moved that a Bill be brought in immediately, to banish all the confiderable Papifts out of the Kingdom.

Sir, by offering at the Exclufion-Bill, we may conclude Ralph Montagu. we have offended the Duke of York; by this Bill for Banifhment, all the reft of the confiderable Papifts in England. As we have made many Enemies, fo it will be convenient, that we fhould endeavour to get fome Law to defend ourselves against their implacable Defigns. For which a Bill for an Affociation of all his Majefty's Proteftant Subjects may do well; and therefore I pray that we may move the Houfe to have it brought in.'

Sir, as we are fick of complicated Difeafes, though all W. G. have their Original from one Caufe, feeing we cannot be permitted to cure that Caufe, we must think of many Remedies to cure the many Evils that fprout from it. The

Banish

1680.

Anne 32Car.II. Banifhing of the Papifts alone will not do it: And I am not willing to pafs any Judgment on the Affociation-Bill before I fee it. But, Sir, what Fruit can you expect from your Laws, unless you can fecure good Judges in Weftminfter hall, and good Men in Commiffion in all other Places? Is there at this time a Judge, a Deputy-Lieutenant, or a Juftice of Peace in Commiffion, that you can expect fhall act against the Duke of York? Or if any fuch be in, are they for more than a Colour? Are they not over-powered by fuch as are for the Duke's Intereft? If this do not make all your Laws invalid, by not executing them; is there not. an Army of about ten thousand Men under the Name of Guards? and may not more be raised? And what then will your Laws fignify? Have we not already had fome Experience of this, when the Toleration came out in 1672. when there was that Army at Black-Heath, and Clifford had the Management of the great Affairs of State? If the King had not then hearkened to the Advice of his Parliament, what would all the Laws that were then in force against Papifts have fignified? And may you not fee the fame again, if you do not take fome care to prevent it? What great Difference between Clifford and fome of our present great Minifters, only that he had that Weakness to declare himfelf to be a Papift, and these the Difcretion to keep the Knowledge of their Religion to themfelves. But we fee they manage things as much in favour of Popery, as ever Clifford did. Did not that Toleration, that Army, and that Minifter of State, repeal all your Laws as effectually, as if they had never been made? When I confider how the Triple-League was broke, after we had made Lav; for the keeping it, by giving near three Millions; how the Peace was made up at Nimeguen, after we had made an Act for an actual War with France, and given above a Million for entring into it; I will never believe that any Law will be obferved, make what you will, unless there be those about the King that may be for the keeping of it; otherwise you fhall have fuch Judges, Juftices, Deputy-Lieutenants, and other commiffioned Officers, as will repeal your Laws at pleasure. And therefore I could with you would confider well, how you poffefs thofe that fent you here, with an Opinion that they may depend upon fuch Laws as these. And at the fame time, Sir, that you are confulting the Deftruction of the Papifts, I think you may do well to endeavour the Prefervation of the Proteftants. Is this a Time for the Church-men and Dissenters to quarrel? It is like two Men riding upon a Road, a Highway man coming to rob them, inftead of uniting to defend th mfelves, they quarrel and difarm one the other, and fo were both robbed. I

pray

1680.

pray God, this do not prove at laft our Cafe. For as that Anno 32Car.Ile Project of the Papifts hath, fince Wakeman's Trial, had ftrange Succefs in dividing us; fo no doubt but it will at laft come to difarming us too; and how that will facilitate their Conqueft, may be easily calculated? Is this a time to weaken the Proteftant Intereft, by tearing us in pieces by the Execution of Acts made against Papifts? That Man who can believe, that that is the way to preferve the Protestant Religion, or Proteftant Church, is fit to believe that St. Dennis walked many Miles with his Head under his Arm, or any other Popish Miracle whatfoever. And therefore I think you will do well to haften the Bill for uniting of the Proteftant Diffenters, that we may bring into the Church as many of them as is poffible, and not longer be fo infatuated as to gratify the Papifts in that particular, by doing their Bufinefs in deftroying one another; but prevent them if poffible by Union, which will tend more to prevent Popery than all the Bills that have been propofed.

'Sir, I have read in Scripture, What King going to make Paul Foley. War against another, fitteth not down firft, and confulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty? I take the Denial of the Bili.of Exclufion to be a plain demonftration, that the Popish Party fhould not be deprived of a Right to govern us; and it is not to be doubted, that having that Right, they will be fure to make use of all the Power they can back it with. That we may be the better able to judge, whether we can fortify our felves fufficiently against fuch a Right, and the Power that will naturally follow it, I pray, Sir, let us follow our Saviour's Advice, and confult, whether with ten thousand we can meet twenty thousand.

:

"When I confider how the triple League was broke, and how all Alliances and Tranfactions relating to Peace and War have been fince managed in favour of the French Intereft, contrary to the true Intereft of England, and the preffing Importunities of foreign Nations, as well as our own, I think we cannot but conclude that the Duke's Intereft, the French Intereft, and Popish Intereft, are all one. And that the Duke's or Popish Interest have fome great Dependance on the French King, for his Affiftance in the fettling of Popery here. And no Man can doubt this, but he that will not believe Coleman's Letters, or that there was a Peace made at Nimeguen, in order to put him in the better condition. If the Jefuits do manage all the Affairs of Europe, as is faid, it may be justly feared, that the French King will improve this Argument fo, as to get Flanders, if not Holland too, before he perform his Promife of giving them the expected Affiftance; which, being it

Anno 32Car.II. will conduce to the deftroying of the Proteftants abroad, as well as here, we may juftly fear the Jefuits will never obftruct,

1689.

Befides the Dependance which the Papifts may have of Affiftance from this mighty Monarch, in Ireland they are five to one for the Proteftants, and amount to many hundred thousands, full of bloody Revenge, derived from their Anceftors, wanting nothing but Arms, (which they may have from France in a Night) to be enabled to maffacre all the Proteftants in Ireland, and to be ready to be tranfported hither. How the Plot hath been carried on there in order to it; how Endeavours have been there used to ftifle and counterplot it; who commands all the English Coaft oppofite to Ireland, we know; and how our Forts and Caftles are provided, the Examination of the Governor of Cheapftow-Cafmay inform you.

tie

And that they may not want a Strength to compel us on every fide, is not the Government of Scotland quite altered, by fome Acts made within these few Years? Is it not become very arbitrary, Parliaments in a manner laid afide, and the Power invefted in a Privy-Council? And is there not a Standing Army of twenty two thoufand Men, fettled by Act of Parliament, with a Declaration, that they fhall be ready to come into England upon any Occafion? And is not the Duke now there, managing the Government of that Kingdom, and Army too, by putting his own Creatures into the Council and into the Command of the Army, and ufing all other Ways imaginable to improve his Intereft there?

And may we not conclude, that in England there may be one hundred thousand Papifts fighting Men, and that Portf mouth, Plymouth, Sheerness, Tilbury-Fort, and Hull, and all other Places of Importance, fhall, when that Interest shall think it convenient, be in the Hands of Perfons they may confide in, as well as the Command of the Militia and Fleet.

Y

And what now, Sir, can any Man fay is wanting, to enable this Party to make a great Conteft with us, but a Popish King to head them? And does any Thing ftand in their Way for that, but his Majefty's Life? And is it not ftrange, that though we fee Things never fo plain, there is no Remedy for poor Proteftants? Can it be imagined, that if this Party fhould once have a King on their fide, endowed with a valourous Spirit, and vowing Revenge, fpurred on with a fiery Zeal, to get not only three Crowns on Earth, but the Crown of Glory in Heaven, by rooting a peftilent Herefy out of three Nations; that they will neglect fo great an Opportunity for the establishing of Popery here? And will not the Divifions they carry on amongst us, as to Churchmen and Fanatics, Plot or no Plot, be very useful to them; but efpecially