1681.

Anno 33 Carl. great Oppofition. But be the Bill what it will, the Precedent is of the higheft Confequence: The King has his Negative to all Bills; but I never knew that the Clerk of the Parliament had a Negative, if he laid it afide or not. But confider, if we fend up many good Bills, if this be not searched into, we may be deprived of them. No Man that knows Law or Hiftory, but can tell that to Bills Grateful and Popular, the King gives his Confent to them. But if this way be found out, that Bill should be thrown by, it may be hereafter faid, they were forgot and laid by, and fo we fall never know whether the King would pass them or no. If this be fuffered, 'tis in vain to spend time here; and 'twill be a great Matter to find time to redress it. I move therefore, that a Meffage be fent to the Lords for a Conference, that fome way may be found out to give us Satisfaction in this

H. Bofcawen.

W. Garraway.

Sir R. How.

Sir R. Temple.

great Matter.

'I do concur with the Gentleman who spoke laft, that Parliaments are prorogued and diffolved by the King; and now here is a new Way found out to fruftrate Bills. The King cannot take one part of a Bill, and reject another, but gives a direct Answer to the whole. But to avoid that, this Bill was never presented to the King, a thing never done before. I defire we may fend to the Lords for a Conference to reprefent this Innovation, and that a Committee be appointed to draw up Reasons for the Managers.'

I was a Friend to this Bill, and I agree in all things concerning the weight of it. The laying this Bill afide, is fuch a Breach of the Conftitution of Parliament, that 'tis in vain to pass any Bill, if this Mifcarriage be not fearched into. By the Conftitution of Parliaments, all Bills but Moneybills, after they are paft both Houfes, are depofited in the Lords Hands; and 'tis below you to look after the Clerks for this Bill. If the Lords give you no Answer for the lofs of this Bill, that is fatisfactory; I would then send to them to know a Reason why the Bill was not tendered to His Majelly with the other Bills.'

'I would have you fearch the Lords Journals, and if you find no Account of the Bill there, then 'twill be time for us to go to the Lords to require Satisfaction."

I have not much to offer you, but I fully concur in the Weight and Confequence of this Matter, and you are to take all the Care you can to fecure it for the future. Never any thing of this Nature was done before, but the Bill for Obfervation of the Lord's Day in the late long Parliament. 'Twas left upon the Table at a Conference, and ftolen away. But 'tis not proper (I conceive) to take notice of this in a Meffage to the Lords, becaufe the Mifcarriage of this Bill was in another Parliament. The Matter must go upon a de

1681.

fire of a Conference with the Lords, concerning the Rights Anno 33 Car.IT. and Privileges of both Houses of Parliament; and then you may appoint a Committee to inform you of the Progrefs of this Matter.'

I think the paffing over the Enquiry after the Lofs E. Vaughan. of the Bill of the Sabbath, in the late long Parliament, was the great Occafion of the Lofs of this. Confider how many Interruptions Parliaments have had of late in the greatest Business, by Prorogations and Diffolutions; and another Way to gratify your Enemies, is to ftitle your Laws, when they have a mind the People fhould have no Benefit of them, though they have patled both Houfes. Therefore I move, &c. ut ante.

I differ only as to the Words. I agree to a Conference, Sir H. Capel. but no more to be faid, than to know what's become of the Bill; for the Lords are the Depositors of all Bills but Money. Without any other Words, I would fend to the Lords for a Conference to know what's become of the Bill. I know but of three Negatives, but by this Proceeding here is a fourth Negative, which may deftroy the Government."

'Tis the beft Way in this matter to obferve old Me- S. Titus. thods; and the best Method to know the Lords Minds, is by Conference. I remember in the late long Parliament, the Lords fent to us for a Conference, and, at it, told the Roof of our Houfe was falling on our Heads; but they fent us not a Meffage of the Danger we were in by the falling of the Roof, but defired a Conference about a Matter of great Confequence. Therefore I would now fend to the Lords for a Conference of Matters relating to the Nation."

'I would fay this, We defire a Conference with the R. Hampden. Lords concerning the Conftitution of Parliaments in Matters relating to paffing of Bills.'

This is a thing of as high Weight as we can confer Sir T. Littleton. upon. Therefore I would not do lefs than in a Thing of leffer Moment. Let a Committee meet, and then agree of the Subject Matter; till then you know not what to fay at the Conference, and 'twill be Monday at the fooneft before' you can do it. I fhall offer another thing at the Conference; I would offer the Lords the Confequence of this way of Proceeding, and to defire the Lords to put the Thing into a Way of Examination, that the Complices may be fit for Punishment. And at the fame Conference, would defire a Committee of both Houfes to confider where the Mifcarriage lay.'

Danby's Cafe Reported, &c. The Account of Fitzharris, and the Libel read, &c Treby's Examination, &c.

Debate on Fitz

Thumbly move, Fitzharris's Examination may be printed, harris's Exami

for the World to fee the devilish Confpiracies of the Papifts. nation.

I Sir J. Hartop.

Anno 33 Car.II. 1681.

I like the Motion for printing, nothing is in this Paper but what's fit to be printed. It fully makes out those Informations you have had before. And because we all know Sir W. Jones. that fince my Lord Stafford's Trial, People have been pre

Secretary Jenkins,

Sir F. Winning

ton.

Sir R. Clayton.

Secretary Jenkins.

Sir T.Littleton.

vailed upon to believe the Plot not true, and this confirms Oats and Bedloe's Informations, I would have them printed, but not the libellous Paper which reflects upon the King'

I will not trouble you, but with that Part I had in this Affair. The Paper was read over to the King by Sir William Waller. Therefore according to the King's Command, I iffued out a Warrant for apprehending Fitzharris, and Sir William Waller was to take care of the Execution of the Warrant.'

This is a Matter of great Importance, and we ought to acquit ourselves in it like wife Men. We that come out of the Country, hear that that Treasonable Paper which has been read by Sir William Waller, was to have been fent to many Gentlemen, they to have been feized thereupon, as Traitors in the Confpiracy; and it may be this was that new Plot. All we have is at Stake, therefore, how long or fhort our fitting is like to be here (the Trooper Harrison faid there would be other Guards at Oxford) let not our Courage leffen. This being our Cafe, let us go to the bottom of this business of Fitzharris. Therefore I move, he may be fent for, and impeached. We know by Experience, when once an Accufation is in Parliament on Record, and in the greateft Court of the Kingdom made known, Malefactors have not been cleared; and you have had Juftice; therefore I would have care taken that this Man be impeached of High-Treafon, and it may be, he will relent and tell you all.'

When Fitzharris's Examination was taken at Newgate, he asked whether he had faid enough to fave his Life? I told him, I thought he had not dealt ingenuously, unless he would tell what Counsel he had for drawing and modelling the Paper; and I bid him be ingenuous in the whole Matter, and I would come and take his farther Examination. But the next Day, after he promised this, he was removed out of our reach into the Tower.' Impeachment Ordered. 'Twas then moved that Secretary Jenkins fhould carry up the Impeachment to the Lords.

The fending me upon this Meflage, &c. reflects upon the King my Mafter; and do what you will with me, I will not go. Many called, To the Bar, to the Bar!

I would not have faid one Word, but that the very Being of Parliament is in the cafe; "Tis to no end to fit here any longer if this be fuffered. There can be no Ground, Reafon or Thought, to bring the King in queflion, or Re

flection

1681.

flection upon him in this Impeachment, or on the Secretary. Anno 33 Car. If
But for him to fay, Do what you will with me, I will not go
with the Impeachment, is what I never heard faid in Parlia-
ment before. Let the Words which fell from him, be written
down before he explain them, according to the Order of
the House.'

'I never heard fuch Words before, that the whole Houfe Sir G. Hunger
of Commons fhould reflect upon the King, and that he will ford.
not obey your Order; let the Words be written down."

The Houfe will be contemptible to the extremeft De- J. Trenchard,
gree, if this be fuffered. Such a thing as never was in Par-
liament before, that the whole House fhould reflect on the
King, and for him to fay, Do what you will, I will not go.'

I faid no fuch thing, that the House reflected on the Sec. Jenkins
King; but that I take it as a Reflection upon the King my
Mafter.'

His Words were, This had not been put upon me, but J. Trenchard. for the Character I bear.'

At laft the Secretary's Words were thus ftated:

This

Meffage is put upon me for the Character I bear. I value not

my

Life nor Liberty, do what you will, I will not go.'

I fay this is put upon me, to my Apprehenfion, for the Sec. Jenkins. Character I bear; and do what you will with me, I will

not go.'

I am forry to fee any Member behave himself at this Sir W. Jones. rate. This Deportment confirms me in the opinion of the Defign of fome Men, to fupprefs the Honour of this Houfe. There has been a Book written (which I hope in time will be enquired after) that the Houfe of Commons fprang first out of Rebellion in Henry the Third's time. This goes on this Day in the fame method. Let a Man be of what Quality he will, if he be too big to be your Member, he is not to be chofen. To fcorn the Commands of the House, and to be too big to be a Meffenger of the House of Commons; Secretaries are fent of Meflages every day, and is he too big a Meffenger to accufe a Perfon of the Popifh Plot? His Words feem to import as if the King would not have the Profecution of the Plot. If his be fo, fit fo longer here, but go home. His Character is great, and he may be privy to Things hid from us, by this extraordinary Carriage. Are we come to that pafs, to be dealt withal, as none of our Predeceffors ever were? If my Brother or Son dealt with the Houfe thus, I would call him to account. For aught I fee, he provokes the Houfe more by his Explanation, therefore pray go on.'

I am as ready, and think myself as much obliged to o- Sec. Jenkins. bey the Commands of the Houfe, as any Man here. The

TOME II.

Q

Office

1681.

Anno 33 Car. II. Office I have excludes me not from it; but the thing I ftand upon is, that the Motion was carried on in Ridicule. I have an honour for this, and ever had for all Houses of Commons; but in this Meffage I must and will be excused.'

Sir H. Capel.

Sir T. M.

Ridicule is not a Word proper for a House of Commons; and what is appointed by this Houfe, is done with all Gravity, especially where the Life of a Man is concerned. We are in an unfortunate Age, now Things come to more light than before, that it fhould be faid that Impeachments ftrike at the King, that the Duke's Bill, &c. is aimed at the King; I am forry to hear it faid here, as well as in other Places. This Employment he is put upon, is for the King's Service, and he tells you it reflects upon the King. All is reversed, if what the Commons do, must be as if it reflected upon the King. I have all imaginable Refpect to the King: But, Sir, we are in a Ship, and we have to do with the Master, and he with us. If this Gentleman would make any fort of excufe, I would willingly accept it; but he has not taken off his Crime, but rather aggravated it. If he has nothing farther to fay, he muft withdraw, and then you'll have a Motion made for the Honour of the House.'

'I know no other difference in any Perfon here; if the (perhaps Mom-Secretary faid, I thought it reflected on the King, a Man may peffon.) be mistaken in his Thoughts; and in cafe it be fo, he would fuffer any thing under that Reflection. He faid it was his Thoughts that the carrying the Meffage was a Reflection upon the King, and in that cafe would fuffer any thing, rather than a Reflection upon the King and his Character'

Sir J. Ernley.

Sec. Jenkins.

'Tis an ill thing to ftumble at the Entrance; I hope the Secretary intended no Dif-fervice to the Houfe, but on a Miftake: I did apprehend it, and fome others, that it was in jeft. But in jeft or carneft, one ought to obey the Commands of the Houfe; but every Man cannot fubdue his own Heart. But I would know upon farther Confideration, whether the Secretary will undertake this Service or no. I am the worst Advocate in the World for any obstinate Perfon. But I humbly offer, whether the Gentleman will ferve you or no before he withdraw.'

Ernley removed from his Place, and whifpered with the Secretary.

Since the Houfe is fo favourable as to hear me, I fhall only fay, that I did apprehend fending me with the Meffage to the Lords, was a Reflection upon the King; if I did apprehend it a Reflection upon my Maiter, I could not but refent it. I am heartily forry I have incurred the Displea

fure