which shall appear more proper to attain the aforesaid ends, and secure the peace of the church and kingdom, when tendered in due manner to him, he will show how readily he will concur in all ways that shall appear good for the kingdom.-Given at the Court at Whitehall, Feb. 24, 1672-3." Debate thereon.] Sir Philip Warwick. Is very glad that the king's Answer is come in so soon it answers all your ends; and he would have it recorded, and the king thanked. Col. Birch. The thing, if well looked into, is as much as we can desire, and he would have the king thanked for it. Sir Tho Lee would have the Answer considered, it consisting of many branches : though in one part he would be very ample in our thanks, yet, in such a general Answer, we contradict our vote of the king's power in ecclesiastical matters: it seems to him that our vote will be of great consequence and weight: would be loth to make hard inferences from the thing; therefore would have a due Answer, and no sudden vote. Sir Rob. Howard. We have now a probable cause of our happiness, but no probabilem causam litigandi. We have that plainly which we have long hoped for: appeals to any man whether he had not a diffidence of mind, from the time of your Message till now: the Answer, in its own nature, is perfectly kind, as the nature of the prince it comes from: "That power you desire is called for by your prince: would have your thanks ordered without a question. Sir Tho, Meres. To speak on a sudden to this thing is an unreasonable hardship; It seems here is a distinction made in the king's power in ecclesiastical' and temporal' matters. Those of the long robe did declare they knew no such difference. Our Address only mentioned ecclesiastical matters, because it referred to the Declaration: knows that in the king's Message this is implied; he will not do it intemporal' but that he may do it; and we say it is not to be done: would have some time to consider it; and they are the words of the king: if we answer it in haste, it will look rash; if we give general thanks, being contradictory to our vote, it will look like levity. Sir Joseph Tradenham thinks this debate a mistaken one; thinks the jealousy vain; for if the king will dispense with what belongs to himself, we cannot be against it. Sir Wm. Coventry. The objection lies in two points; the king says, lle is sorry you should question what never was questioned in the reigns of any of his ancestors.' The king may complain, and it is a misfortune to him that he is sensible, and we ought to be so too: appeals, if our business be not at an end today. If you will have the penal statutes put in execution, the king tells you what he is willing to do in signing a Bill, and moves you to give the king thanks. Col. Strangways. The Message consists of several parts, and they are of great moment: many things involved in it, and it being a point of great tenderness, moves to have it considered to-morrow morning, and would have the thing weighed as it deserves to be weighed. 6 Sir Rd. Temple. It seems to him fraught with so much condescension as never yet came from a king, and sees no reason to retard the thanks, especially at such a time as this: the king tells you, he designed nothing but taking off penalties, not dispensing with laws, and that if you will pass an Act, he is willing to it; and therefore now the king has given no occasion to delay your thanks, an hesitation in this thing will look like an endeavour to take au exception: moves for thanks. Sir Wm. Coventry moves not for giving thanks; that is indecent; it implies that either you must give reasons, and present them, or humbly ask his majesty's pardon for what we have done: sees no difficulty on our parts to thank the king for preserving our properties, and no more. Mr. Garroway is glad we have this gracious Answer, therefore moves for a committee to pen it, that we may not commit yet a greater error (if it be one) than our vote. Sir John Duncombe. Could the king say a more kind thing than his Message? Thinks he desires nothing but peace: the thing troubles the king, and troubles the whole nation: how could the king keep all things quiet but by suspending these laws? Is sorry, that any thing should look like a doubt of giving him thanks." Mr. Attorney Finch supposes that no new addition shall substract what was proposed in the former question: would have your address with all gratitude imaginable. It is a mistake that an Answer of thanks excludes farther grace: why should we refuse thanks for this degree his maj. has given us of Answer, when he might have refused us this gracious answer, or any farther answer? Sir Tho. Lee would have the house understand, that the fear is, whether a power is not asserted in our Answer, whether by priests preaching in English, and mass being said in several places, the laws are not so suspended as taken off by the Declaration : agrees for giving the king thanks, but would be secured that penal laws cannot be suspended but by act of parliament. If he makes too harsh an inference, begs the pardon of the house: it is the greatest question that ever was in parliament, and may shut the door to all Addresses for the future: in our thanks let us not lose our rights and liberties, lest we say, 'we thank your maj. for suspending the laws.' If this be the consequence, let every man lay his hand on his heart, and say, How shall any penal laws be made? Or else your vote signifies nothing. Sir Lionel Jenkins. The king says, He was under a necessity of dispensing and having the power of peace and war by his prerogative, he has power of doing things in order thereunto; but when a Bill shall be preferred,' his maj. says, he will pass it; he therefore conceives thanks to his majesty requisite and proper. cessity: and that necessity has been ever since, and he has raised money without them: Shall we rest in a doubtful and ambiguous Answer, where our rights and liberties are concerned? Would have the Answer of Thanks and Complaint go together, and how you can do it without a cominittee, a wiser man than he must tell you. It was then resolved, "That the Thanks of this house be presented to his maj. for his gracious Assurances and Promises in his Answer to the Address presented by this house." Feb. 25. Sir Wm. Coventry. It concerns us to proceed with all duty to his maj. for preservation of our laws and liberties: Finds no way more expedient for this business, than going into a grand committee: hopes it may be done substantially, and answer all the ends of the house, and heats avoided: We have always referred Reasons for things to be prepared by a committee, and the house to approve of them; and he thinks it now most expedient to your purpose. Mr. Vaughan wonders at Jenkins's inference, 'that power of peace and war, is power of repealing laws;' as much as to say, if power of war, power to determine whether law or no law: would have such thanks, as we may have no occasion of giving more upon this account: as the question is proposed, we thank him for the particulars afterwards: if we thank our king so, we condemn ourselves: would have such an Answer as we may thank him for pre- Mr. Powle. Before you refer it to a comservation of us and himself: moves for a committee, would open the exceptions we have to mittee to consider the Answer and Reasons. Mr. Waller. Whether the word 'gracious' shall be applied to the whole Answer, or to part of it, is the question: the danger to the whole is contradicting our Address. Says the king, 'it was never in the time of my ancestors questioned,' which is not an assertion of the king's is not this a gracious thing? And the word gracious' may be applied to the whole Answer, for the king not asserting it, is a gracious Answer. Sir Tho. Meres. In the king's Answer, the power in ecclesiastical matters is plainly asserted. The Message says, he only designs to take off that penalty of the statutes;' if any will say, that so taking off penalties be not to suspend laws, what you have voted is not right. If you will thank him for suspending, it is a levity he hopes this house will never be guilty of. Mr. Secretary Coventry avers there is no assertion in the Message, nor distinction; it joins both our liberties and ecclesiastical matters. In the words of the Message, the king' never had thoughts of using it otherwise, than for the good of his subjects; not to properties, nor to alter any thing established by law in church or state. Mr. Powle. Jenkins said, 'there was a necessity of the Declaration.' The violation of our laws has been necessity. The States of Normandy desired the king of France not to raise any more taxes but by their consent; his answer was, he would not do it but upon ne his majesty's Answer. It is apparent, that those persons that advised his maj. to this Declaration, still inform him that it is his right. Not questioned in the reigns of any of his ancestors,' will seem to imply, an unquestionable right without parliament-3 James, Petition of Grievances; some wholly relating to ecclesiastical matters-The jurisdiction of the High Commissioned Court abused, in pursuance of their citations and excommunications; all ec clesiastical matters-In the next session, complaint of the Canons of 1 James, without consent of parliament, which were then protested against, and complained of. In the next session, complaint that the ecclesiastical laws were not put in execution against non-residents and recusants-The king then, it seems, has been strangely misinformed of his power in ecclesiastical maters: the law gives penalties, not by way of profit or revenue, but for punishment of offenders: If the king can remit penalties, always complained of in parliament, and redressed there, it tends to the overthrow of all things; and hopes this assertion will be waved: taking the co-herence all together, that the king may, for peace, suspend laws, the pretence of necessity may never be wanting The saying a Bill may be more proper,' implies suspension to be proper: These things have extremely weighed with him and doubts not but, upon our informing the king, he will be graciously pleased to satisfy us; else the consequence will be an endless dispute betwixt the king and this house. 6 Sir Tho. Lee hopes that care will be taken, for the future, that there shall be no occasion of this nature, thinks this business too great for a committee. Sir Tho. Meres would have the committee so far empowered, as plainly to show that the power is not in the king: If not so instructed, time will be lost, and new debates again. Mr. Garroway would confirm to the Dissenters such houses as are already granted them. Sir Adam Browne. Every sectary will say he is a Protestant and no Papist: You must take care for the other parties as well as the Presbyterians. Sir Tho. Clarges agrees not to the places already appointed: would have great caution as well to places as to the religion established: would have it penned for such places as shall be appointed by act of parliament.' Sir Wm. Hickman, thinks it not reasonable they should have their meeting-houses out of town; the Act being temporary, they will not build houses. "Most Gracious Sovereign, We your maj.'s most humble and loyal subjects, the knights, citizens, and burgesses, in this present parliament assembled, do render to your sacred maj. our most dutiful Thanks, for that, to our unspeakable comfort, your maj. hath been pleased so often to reiterate unto us those gracious promises and assurances of maintaining the Religion now established, and the Liberties and Mr. Swynfin. You have great expectations Properties of your people: And we do not in upon you, and you have partly intended thein the least measure doubt, but that your maj. the thing under consideration. If then somehad the same gracious intentions in giving sa- thing must be done, consider, that some think tisfaction to your subjects, by your Answer to it far greater than it is: the Test for subscripour late Petition and Address; yet upon a serious tion of qualifying persons is as much as was in consideration thereof, we find, that the said queen Eliz.'s time: compare the Church then Answer is not sufficient to clear the apprehen- and now; there were many professed enemies sions that may justly remain in the minds of then, all the opposition the Church of Rome your people, by your majesty's having claimed could make, and other dissenters: hopes that a power to suspend penal Statutes, in matters this may bring a small number of the Church Ecclesiastical, and which your maj, does still to be a greater: Meeting' must import some seem to assert, in the said Answer, to be in-place, but how to describe the place? either trusted in the crown, and never questioned in the reigns of any of your ancestors;' wherein, we humbly conceive, your maj. hath been very much mis-informed; since no such power was ever claimed, or exercised, by any of your maj.'s predecessors; and, if it should be admitted, might tend to the interrupting of the free course of the laws, and altering of the legislative power, which hath always been acknowledged to reside in your majesty, and your two houses of parliament. We do therefore, with an unanimous consent, become again most humble suitors unto your sacred majesty, that you would be pleased to give us a full and satisfactory Answer to our said Petion and Address: and that your maj. would take such effectual order, that the proceedings in this matter may not, for the future, be drawn into consequence or example." After debate, it was resolved, "That the whole Address be agreed to, as it was brought in by the committee; and that it be presented to his majesty." Further Debate on the Bill of Ease to Protestant Dissenters.] Feb. 27. In a grand committee on the Bill of Ease to his majesty's Protestant Dissenting subjects, Mr. Powle said, it was the advice of St. Paul, to bear with those that were weak in faith: Those that are of the same belief with us desire Ease,' which must relate to burdens. By the law of queen Eliz. no man was punished that did not teach heretical or erroneous opinions. Now before the last law of Conventicles, no law reached them. Here we have a sort of people that teach nothing but the truth, and knows not why we should deny these people liberty, that have it in all places but where the inquisition is. left to their own choice,' and that possibly may have two great a latitude, and then you cannot find them to have the Test: if by certificate to the sessions,' then such places as are already allowed by licence; but thinks that gives too much countenance to the Declaration. Sir Tho. Lee. If at this day they meet at any house without Bible, or religious worship, they are not within your act: these sort of people having a design to do mischief, may meet together, and you cannot punish them: if you find them tumultuous, you need not continue the Bill, but would have the liberty with the largest. Mr. Crouch. The question is, what place they shall have? Cambridge, the place be serves for, desires that they may not be there. Sir Wm. Coventry, hoped Crouch did move that they might have been in Cambridge: would have them in the universities, that they may convert them. Mr. Crouch. They will be disturbed by the youths there with disputing: would not have them there. Colonel Strangways. Public places are, in our religion, for divine worship, that people may find them; and that no disturbance be made, and no ill doctrine preached: indulgences that were to itinerant preachers' per totam Angliam,' those disturbed most. It was then voted, "In such places only as by this Act shall be appointed." It was next proposed "That the Bill continue but for one year, and from thence to the end of the next session of parliament." Sir John Duncombe. Would have it stop at one year; you will in that time find inconve nience sufficient both to church and state. Sir Ch. Harbord. Will you put them into a snare for a year? better let it alone totally. Let them fully in, and they will be concerned for their good behaviour, and you may do good with them. Sir Wm. Coventry. Would not have them bear offices, nor have the benefit by not bearing offices; but would have them contribute to the charge. Mr. Crouch, would not have them church wardens that care not for the Church, and would let it fall: would have them not capable, but fine for it. Sir Wm. Coventry. If he does not execute his office as he should, he will fall into the bishop's hands; and his courts will handle him sufficiently. It is said that the bishops cannot handle them;' but you do not take the penalties off any more than in not coming to the Church, and he will have a writ de excom. capiendo, which is not by this Act voided. Mr. Crouch. This writ will cost 31. to the person that takes it out; and no sooner in the jail but let loose; and no remedy but what is worse than the disease. Sir Tho. Lee. The ecclesiastical courts in some things have too much power, and in others too little, and the bishops usually the least: this bill has no relation to offices: and if you debate this, you must also the regulating the ecclesiastical power. Sir John Duncombe. If you let them in to be church-wardens, or overseers of the poor, you will be sure to have all of their opinion well fed, and the rest starved. Sir Tho. Lee. One church-warden is named by the parson, and the other by the parish, so you are sure that one will be a churchman; and as for the overseers of the poor, chosen by the parish, and allowed of at the justices monthly meeting, there is seldom any distinction in distributing the money; and if there is, the justices may remedy it. Sir Thomas Meres reported the Heads of a Bill for the ease of Dissenters.-The following are the said Heads, as abridged from the Journal." "To subscribe to the Articles of the Doctrine of the Church of England: to take the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy: ⚫ Assent and Consent' taken away: pains for meeting taken away: Teachers to subscribe and take the Oaths at quarter sessions: before two Justices of the Peace, out of sessions, to teach till next sessions, doors open: to continue for a year, and from thence to the end of the next session of parliament." Debate on removing Papists from Public Employments.] Feb. 28. Mr. Sacheverell, moves for removing all popish recusants out of military office or command. Mr. Tho. Lee complained of divers who were got into command lately. Sir Rob. Carr. Neither Lee, nor any man else, knows that any considerable papists are in arms: if one papist be qualified with 40 or 50 Protestants, there is no danger: if any more be, they are likely to go beyond sea, and not trouble you here. Mr. Vaughan. Drums beat about the streets; there are many Irish popish officers; and in the coffee-houses they say some of us are to be hanged, when the parliament rises :" when these men are once raised, we shall not know how to get them suppressed: therefore moves for a vote for an Address to the king, for removing them. Sir Tho. Osborne. The king was pleased to have the commissions searched, and there were not 16, before these new forces were raised: he considered not their religion, but that they were soldiers and good officers: the king knew them to be good officers, but not Catholics: you will not, he hopes, expect that those of the fleet (so considerable) should be excluded the service. Earl of Ogle. He must chuse some Roman Catholics, or he cannot raise the king a good regiment: he must do them this justice, that many of them have been killed, and lost their estates, for the king's service: he has but two officers papists in his whole regiment, and one was put upon him: it does not become us to think of so great danger of Popery. Sir Rob. Howard. What you are to do now, is to appoint some members to draw a Bill, to exempt them from this trust he is no great affecter of their religion, but would not have the swords of gallant men taken from them. Mr. Garroway. Has no man in particular to charge. Yet common fame makes them lavish, in saying, they are only able to serve the king: is sorry to have it said here, that we have no persons capable of service, but papists: the greater is the danger of them: we have many young gentlemen, protestants, who may learn, and in time be put in employment: the king, in his speech, has formerly thought them incapable; and therefore he does. As for facilitating the king's business, which gave this day's interruption, when the people shall see we have not forgot them in their fears of Popery, the money will be given with the better will, and their spirits quieted. Earl of Ogle. Says he is lieutenant of Northumberland, which county is divided be twixt papists and such as have fought against the king: he is the son of a father that has fought for him, and so are they also; therefore it cannot be thought amiss to employ them. Col. Strangways, is sorry that those of the Church of England are dead, and those alive that have not served the king: many that have served the king cannot get employment: would have lord Ogle carry those abroad that have disserved the king: let us do that which becomes prudent men: he has a kindness for their persons, but would not have power in their hands to do mischief: but will nothing satisfy them but to be in competition with you: would have none of that. Son of the famous marquis and duke of Newcastle, whom he succeeded in those titles in 1676, and died without issue male in 1691. Mr. Powle, would distinguish between old and new converts: putting them in employment looks like a reward of their apostacy: lord Ogle said, he had but two, and one put upon him.' He is sorry they have such interest: another said, there were not above 15 or 16. All agree, that amongst the newraised men, there are many: it may be said, many have served the king: desires not the rigour of execution of the laws; but when such have arms in their hands, knows not but they may make use of them to establish their own power. Col. Birch. Men will be more able to pay the tax, by the clause of corn, more willing, by recalling the Declaration, and out of fear for the future, by this vote of Popery. Ireland for 50 years, in queen Eliz's. time, had no rebellion in it, and good trade; but when the Papists once got into office there cheek-by-jowl with the Protestants, then they rebelled. If you put not a stop to this, all will be ineffectual: when he considers at the first Reformation in Henry viii th's time, how few we were, and what a swing it had when once got in fashion,-let men apply it: a great many that took the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy rebelled: what has been done may be done: would have the king and you assured in the business, and that is all he aims at. Mr. Harbord. Unless you do something more than a vote, you will be under the same power the Presbyterians were in the Long Parliament, awed by the Independents, w had arms in their hands: would have a law fo. Sir John Duncombe. The servant that had it there was great rejoicing at Rome, by the so much forgiven him, and took his fellow serCardinal Protector of the English, for the vant by the throat for a small debt, such peoking's murder: and to those they durst speak ple must be looked to. Let men carry humatheir minds to they said, they could not pre-nity about them when they run so into religion. vail upon him for his religion.' Now in this be takes the liberty rather to displease his king than undo him. [The words gave offence. He explains himself upon the Declaration, that it would undo the king and the subject. Sir Tho. Meres. The words gave no offence; every man ought to say so, if he be persuaded in his heart for what is not of faith, is sin' that it will undo the king. Sir John Duncombe takes things of this nature with as much humanity, as he would have other men do of him: Harboard knows he has great respect for him but though the king gives us freedom of speech, yet he never heard the like before here. : Sir Tho. Osborne hopes the words were not as he apprehends them, but would have them asserted. Col. Strangways thinks the words may be justified, and no hurt in them, take them in the true meaning. Mr. Attorney Finch. The reason of law why we have liberty of speech, is, that whatever ill is said of us without doors, we may be censured here only for it: supposes the gentleman does sufficiently correct himself for what he has said. Mr. Garroway desires for the sake of your member, that the words may be asserted, that the things may not be reported without doors which were not said within. Men that have been locked up in their own walls (as the Romish Fryars) know not how to se their tongues in company, and some are indiscreet through zeal; for zeal and love never were discreet. Resolved, "That all persons who shall refuse to take the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy, and to receive the Sacrament according to the Rites of the Church of England, shall be incapable of all public employments, military or civil.” The King's Speech, complaining of Addresses received from the Commons.] March 1. The king came this day to the house of lords, and made a short Speech as follows: My lords; you know that, at the opening of this session, I spake here to your satisfaction: it hath notwithstanding begotten a greater disquiet in the h. of commons than I could have imagined. I received an Address from them which I looked not for; I made them an Answer that ought to have contented them: but on the contrary, they have made me a reply, of such a nature, that I cannot think fit to proceed any further in this matter without your advice. I have commanded the Chancellor to acquaint you with all the transaction, wherein you will find both me and yourselves highly concerned. I am sensible for what relates to me; and I assure you, my lords I am not less so for your privileges and the honour Sir John Duncombe. A man would be tron-of this house." bled for the very approaches of offending this house: it would grieve him to the soul to do it. Mr. Harbord explains: not at all satisfied with the Declaration; he intended no reflection on the king, and would submit to all the severity in the world rather than be thought such a one. Sir Tho. Meres could have wished the thing had been better worded, but the sense was good.-[So it passed over, and the debate was resumed.] Sir Tho. Lee. If the word 'popish' be without' suspected,' you have not one convicted recusant' in England. Debate thercon. This Speech was taken into consideration, and both his maj. and the duke chose to continue in the house, in expectation of the event.—Of the debate which ensued, there is no regular account remaining, though it was one of the most important in our annals. Bishop Burnet has, indeed, made a shift to glean up some particulars concerning it, which he has favoured the public with, as also of the intrigue which followed; and quotes for his vouchers, the duke of York, the duke of Lauderdale, and col. Titus.-According to him, lord Clifford was the hero for the Declaration, |