not founded upon the principle of commutation, he begged not to be understood as pledging himself, in the slightest degree, against a measure founded upon that principle, provided he could see any mode of disentangling it from the numerous difficulties and embarrassments with which it was enveloped. When, however, the House considered the immense mass of information which it would be necessary to collect, before a well-digested and practicable plan of commutation could be prepared for the consideration of parliament, it would pardon him, he hoped, for coming forward, at this early period, with a measure of another description, which, though it did not embrace commutation, would be found to afford very material relief to the grievances at present resulting from the mode of administering the tithe system in Ireland. He would now state the principles upon which the bill he proposed to bring in was founded. That principle was simply this: that tithes were, to all intents and purposes, private property-property held under the most ancient and unobjectionable title -the property of a class, the most respectable of the community; and to be approached with a degree of carefulness and delicacy to which no other description of possession could lay claim. He was bound to declare, too (setting aside occasional exceptions), that the property of the church was beneficially administered for the general interests of the country. Apart from the indulgence of particular opinions, the merits of the clergy, as a body, must be confessed. The fact, were it otherwise, no way touched the subject in question; it was no waver of a man's title to his property to say, that he spent it improperly; but the fact, as to the church, was as he (Mr. G.) stated it; and he defied the most anxious inquirers to disprove its accuracy. Public emergencies occasionally did require sacrifices of private property. The clergy admitted the justice of that principle; they had been, and still were, prepared to share those sacrifices with the rest of the nation; and demanded only that their fair proportion should be allotted to them. They claimed no exemption on account of the sanctity of their character-no favour on the score of their influence over the community; but they desired that those circumstances might not be made to weigh against them. The natural consequence, then, of considering tithe as property was, to reject the idea of compulsory interference with respect to it. The bill, therefore, rather gave the power of remedy, than compelled it; and if he could satisfy the House, that if adopted, it would give a power of remedying the existing evils, and would make it the interest of all concerned, to avail themselves of the permission which it gave, he thought he could not fail of receiving their support. It was necessary, then, to consider what were the evils of the tithe system. And here he begged to observe, that many evils were attributed to the tithes which did not belong to them-many arose from causes more or less unconnected with them--but much was assignable to the peculiar tenures of land, and the administration of landed property in Ireland, and to the habits of the people, which gave to the tithe system in Ireland an operation and an effect unknown to the same system in England. He wished particularly to impress upon the House, that it was not so much the tithe itself, as the operation of tithes on a peculiar state of landed property, which gave rise to the evils complained of; because it was this circumstance which formed his qualification for bringing forward a separate measure, with respect to the tithe of one part of the united church. He begged not to be understood as throwing out any general aspersion upon the people of that country; neither did he mean to attribute any of the abuses to a disposition on the part of the country gentlemen of Ireland to vio late the rights or infringe upon the property of the clergy; for he was convinced, that, upon the thorough union of the clergy and the country gentlemen of Ireland, des pended, in a great degree, the tranquillity and the safety of that part of the united kingdom. It would be, therefore, most culpable in him to let fall any expression which could excite dissension between those two most important classes of the community.--It was necessary, he repeated, in the consideration of this subject, always to bear in mind, that tithe property in Ireland was subject to many inconveniences which did not attach to the same species of property in England. Independently of the peculiar nature of the tenure of land in Ireland, which led to serious inconveni❤ ences, there were many, and great evils that arose out of the mode of the col lection; not that he meant to attribute to the clergy of Ireland any undue severity in enforcing the payment of tithes. He had accurately examined the amount of not selected for the purpose of effect, but their demands; he had had returns from casually taken from the list before him. every diocese, and almost every parish, in In the case of the parish to which he alIreland; and the result was, a conviction luded, which was in the county of Kerry, that the clergy universally manifested the the income of the incumbent amounted to greatest forbearance, and demanded, in 4800. a year, and he had to collect his general, much less than that which they tithes from no less than 1,960 persons. were legally entitled to receive; and, in- It was obvious how difficult it must be to deed, however strange and paradoxical it collect tithes from such a number of indimight appear, some of the evils arising viduals; and, consequently, how uncertain from tithes in Ireland arose from that very the income of the incumbent must be forbearance, on the part of the church, For, though the amount of the sum to be which induced a postponement of the collected from each individual was small, payment to a period more distant than was it was not, on that account, collected with usual in England. The great evil of tithes the less difficulty.-Another cause which was, the uncertainty of the amount to be tended to increase the evil in Ireland, demanded. This was an evil applicable to arose from the mode in which lands were tithe in all countries; but it applied with let. It was, he believed, well known, that additional force to Ireland. The charac- lands in Ireland were generally let by ter of the Irish was not peculiarly distin- competition, and such was the attachment guished for providence; they were little of the Irish to the place of their birth, and accustomed to make provision for distant their desire to reside upon the spot where and uncertain contingencies, when re- their fathers had lived, that small farms quiring a sacrifice of immediate enjoyment. and tenements were eagerly tenanted at In saying this, he meant to throw no slur sometimes an exorbitant rent. To provide upon their character. The evils of which for that rent was the only care of the he complained had their origin, if not in tenant, and therefore no provision was their virtues, at least in their warm and made for the payment of tithes to the ingenerous feelings; but this circumstance cumbent. The clergyman, possibly with aggravated, with respect to them, the evils a large family, was therefore under the of uncertainty. Another great and leading necessity of giving up his income, or of evil of the tithe system in Ireland was, instituting a number of law processes, that the clergyman was, generally speaking, both expensive and harassing in their compelled to receive the bulk of his tithes nature. This led to another and a most from the very lowest and poorest parts of serious evil; it brought the clergyman the population. In England, tithes were, into close and hostile contact with the for the most part, drawn from a higher poorest of his parishioners, who being gedescription of individuals from farmers, nerally of a different religion from him, who, in general, employed considerable were the more averse from payments of capital in agricultural operations, and who this kind. With a view, then, to apply a had therefore more ready means of remedy to those evils, he should now move meeting the demands of the incumbent, to bring in a bill to enable the incumbent than any which the Irish cottager pos- to enter into leases for 21 years for the sessed. In Ireland, the case was very tithes, not with the occupiers, but with different, and the clergyman was fre- the proprietors of the soil. One beneficial quently reduced to this distressing di-effect resulting from this plan would be, lemma, either to exact his pittance of tithes from the poorest individuals, or to abandon his lawful right, and consequently his income together. In England, the clergyman might be liberal to the poorer tenant, and might forego his demand-the bulk of his income was drawn from a more wealthy class; but, in Ireland, it would be impossible for the clergyman to forego the exaction of tithes from the poor, without giving up the whole of his income. He had before him a list of Irish livings, and, in order to illustrate what he had stated, he would mention one case to the House, that during the continuance of the lease there would be no uncertainty of payment; the poorest occupier might therefore be induced to make provision for the payment of his tithes. It might be said, that the system of leasing tithes was already in operation in Ireland; but there was this material difference between the system now in existence in Ireland and that which he was about to propose that now, the lease being during the life of the incumbent, or while he should retain the living, such a lease could not bind the successor to the living. A moment's consideration would show, that leases of this description must be liable to great inconvenience, on account of their uncertainty. The in'cumbent was secure, but the lessee was not. The death of the incumbent-his promotion-the exchange of his benefice, at once violated the contract, and left the tithe tenant without notice, at the mercy of his successor. To the new incumbent also the evil was not less; it imposed upon a stranger, perhaps unaccustomed to business of the kind, to ascertain, immediately on his induction, the value of his living, either to agree to lease a property of which he knew not the value, or to embark in all the evils of a collection of tithe through the medium of a subordinate agent. Now this bill, by making the lease certain for twenty-one years, and binding for so long on the successor to the living, would give a fixed security, and place both parties upon an equal footing. In enacting such a bill, care should be taken to prevent any abuses to which it might give rise, by unfair valuation. To prevent this, he would propose that the tithe should be leased without fine, at a fair valuation, and subject to the approbation of the ordinary and patron. To remedy the other evil, the bill would allow the incumbent to enter into a lease for tithes with a person having a freehold interest, or a reversionary interest, in the land, who would thus have the means of paying himself the sum which he might agree to pay for tithes.-The question would here naturally occur, whether the plan he had proposed would be likely to be effectual for the end in view? Upon this point he had the satisfaction to state, that he did not rest his hopes of its success on argument or speculation. The advantages of the plan might be proved by what had been already done on similar principles in more imperfect operation. From all the inquiries he had made on the subject in most of the dioceses in Ireland, he had learned this that in every one in which a composition had been entered into for the tithes, there had been such an improvement in the condition as well of the people as of the clergy, as was evident to any one capable of forming an opinion on the subject, while precisely the reverse was observable in those dioceses where a similar practice of composition was excluded. In other places in Ireland, agreements had been entered into between the incumbent and the better class of parishioners, by which a certain sum was to be paid, the pa rishioners undertaking to collect it. In all such places, though the plan was not yet sanctioned by the law, he had learned that the utmost tranquillity prevailed; which gave him the happiest anticipation of the results of what he now proposed. If he had now shown, that the necessity and convenience of such a measure had been proved by its voluntary adoption in so many instances, there could be no doubt its general extension by law would be most willingly received throughout the country. The clergy would, he was satisfied, be anxious to avail themselves of arrangements which would enable them more ef fectually to discharge the sacred duties of their office; and he would not pay so ill a compliment to the patriotism of the country gentlemen of Ireland, as to suppose they would be hostile to a measure which would get rid of so many evils. There would, he was persuaded, be a corresponding disposition on each side to meet and obviate the difficulties of the present system.— One great objection which he supposed would be urged against this plan would be, that it would materially interfere with any future measure for a general commutation of tithes. Now, he denied that it would have any such effect: so far from being an obstacle to, it would greatly facilitate such a measure. He apprehended it would not be denied by those who had considered the question of tithe commutation, that one of the greatest obstacles opposed to it was, the extreme difficulty of ascertaining the emoluments of the clergy, with the view of seeing what would be the fair amount to be given in lieu of their tithes: but, if the present measure were adopted, that obstacle would be mainly removed, because a good ground would be established for forming a correct opinion as to the value of the tithe. That this measure was calculated to facilitate a general commutation, was admitted by an hon. baronet (sir H. Parnell), who, when he introduced his plan for the leasing of tithes, urged as an argument in its favour, that it would render the principle of commutation much more easy at a future period. He (Mr. G.) would now say the same of his measure. With respect to the general question of commutation of tithes in Ireland, it was at present, as it had been for some time past, under the consideration of the government in that country. They were, at the present moment, giving their most serious attention, for the purpose of ascer by putting the law into execution in opposition to the custom. The tithe system, as it existed at present, was the source of endless expense and litigation in Ireland. One principle cause of the oppressions belonging to it, arose from the uncertainty of the sum to be paid, and of the time of paying it: this placed the poor in the taining how far the impediments against that measure might be removed, and how its adoption might be consistent with justice to all parties. If the result of that consideration should be, that it would not be convenient or proper to adopt the measure, he would be ready to state the grounds on which such a decision rested. If the measure should appear to be prac-power of the proctors: and whenever ticable, he should be most happy, at a great powers were vested by law in the future period, to submit a measure of hands of the lower orders, to be enforced commutation to the consideration of the upon paupers, every species of fraud and House; but at all times he would be ready oppression was sure to be the conseto listen to the plan of any gentleman on quence. He did not wish to make the this subject, not with the view of opposing case worse than it really was, by entering it, but with the best disposition to ascer-into particular instances of abuse. There tain how far its adoption might be calcu- was one instance, however, which he could lated to remove the evils of the tithe not help noticing. Tithe was claimed of system in Ireland; and he could assure a man to the amount of 11s. 44d. for the the House that he would at all times lend year 1816, and of 7s. 6d. for the year his best assistance in support of any mea-1817. The collector of tithes took out sure calculated to produce so great a be- process in the Exchequer to recover it, nefit to the country. [Hear, hear!] In and the man was in consequence comconclusion, he expressed a confident hope, pelled to pay 31. 8s. 10d., though he that the measure he was now about to in- offered no defence whatsoever. He begged troduce would be productive of immediate the House to recollect, that the abuse benefit, and that it could not interfere which he had pointed out in this case was with any future more general remedy; likely to extend through the whole of and under these circumstances he earnestly Ireland. After stating that the Catholics, recommended its adoption to the House. who suffered most by this system, comHe then moved, "That leave be given to plained least of it, the hon. baronet probring in a bill to enable ecclesiastical and ceeded to defend the landlords of Ireland other persons in Ireland to grant Leases from the charges which his right hon. of Tithes so as to bind their successors." friend, the member for the University of Dublin, had recently brought against them. His right hon. friend had stated, that the landlords extorted so much in the way of rent from their tenantry as to leave them nothing wherewith to pay their tithe. This was a doctrine which proved that the right hon. gentleman, had not sufficiently examined the nature of rent, and those circumstances which governed the bargains between landlord and tenant. It was utterly impossible that such a system could be universal; for if the farmer had nothing left to pay tithe after paying his rent; he could have no return in the shape of profit for his labour, and no means of supporting himself and family. The business of cultivating lands could not go on, unless those who pursued it, obtained the ordinary rate of profit, which was established in the country, as the return of all labour and industry. Indeed, to make out a general charge of extortion against the landlords, it was necessary to suppose the existence of a general combination among them against their tenantry. Now such a combination could lead to Sir H. Parnell said, he was happy to observe, that the government had at length taken the important question of Irish tithes into their consideration. Such a step ought to have been taken years back. That it had not, was not his fault; for at a very early period after he had the honour of a seat in that House, he had called the attention of parliament to it. The measure had made some progress by the liberal manner in which the right hon. gentleman had that night introduced it into the House; but the evil was so great as to require the application of a more general remedy than the one proposed. The chief evil of the system was not to be found in the amount of tithes received by the clergy, for he believed that the clergy in general acted with great generosity and humanity, but in the manner in which those tithes were too frequently collected. There was a wide difference between the tithes which a clergyman could take by law, and those which he took by custom; indeed so wide, that a clergyman might disturb a whole county there was hardly one without insurrection and disturbance. Where those exactions were not attempted, comparative tranquillity prevailed. The mode of exacting this tithe was also nefarious and unjust, and made most improperly dependent upon an arbitrary rate of price in the markets. For all these evils he knew but one remedy-commutation; and he did not see what was to impede a valuation under the act of Charles 2nd., by valuators appointed by the privy council, as in the case of ministers' money in towns? It was the duty of government to apply á remedy to the evil. The present measure only put off that evil day which ultimately must be met. There was nothing remedial in this bill, and sooner than press the matter now, he had rather the Irish government should refrain until next session from introducing a legislative measure upon this subject. nothing else than their own ruin, as it was impossible for the landlord to stand long after his tenant had fallen. The right hon. secretary had referred to his (sir H. P.'s) bill of last year, to defend that part of the plan which enabled the incumbent to grant a lease binding his successor. Now, he was free to confess, that since he had introduced his bill, he had heard that the remedy which it proposed was not likely to be so effective as he could wish. Taking the fact into his consideration, he was bound to object to the present measure, because, if it were carried, there would be little chance of introducing with success a more general one. If such an attempt were made, the party making it would be told that the measure was already settled, and would thus be prevented from making any farther improvement in the system. The right hon. secretary had stated, that there were great difficulties in the way of a commutation of tithes, but Mr. Plunkett said, it would not be fair had not pointed out from which quarter dealing with the government, called on those difficulties were likely to arise. He as they had been to introduce a remedial had not shown, that the clergy were hos-measure, to interpose at the outset, betile to it; indeed, not one petition had fore its details could be known. He debeen presented against such a plan from nied that this bill would stand in the way the clergy, though several had been pre- of an ulterior measure founded upon the sented in favour of it. He could state general principle of commutation. On from good authority, that the clergy were the contrary, it would facilitate it, by strongly in favour of a commutation of establishing a nearer principle of valua tithes; and as a proof of his assertion, he tion. For his own part, he could not see read to the House three different plans his way through the principle of commu for effecting it, which he had received tation. On what principle would they from clergymen. He made these observa- commute? Would they give the clergy tions to induce the House not to agree to what was called a fair and liberal remunethe bill now before it; first, because it ration, or would they elect an arbitrary was an inefficient measure; and secondly, standard? The difficulty was, how to because it would be a bar, if carried, to the touch the property of the church without success of a more general proposition. affecting the rights of property of every He therefore trusted that the right hon. other description. Suppose they were to secretary would not press it at present, take the broad ground of right in their but would take time till the next session scale of estimate-then they must practito consider whether some better measure cally levy a larger sum than the clergy might not be devised. collected; for the actual receipts were nearer 1-20th than 1-10th. great difficulty in the way of commutation was, to draw a distinction between church and other property. If they opened the chapter of the church, they would be next called upon to open the chapter of the landlord. He must, from his own professional experience, deny that tithes were the cause of local disturbances in Ireland, unless so far as tithes were an ingredient in property; for it was against property that the insubordination was directed, and against that alone. His right hon. friend attributed the disturb Sir J. Newport thought it would be better to press no measure at present, rather than the one under discussion. He was convinced, that if the parochial clergy of Ireland could be polled without their names being disclosed to their episcopal superiors, four-fifths of them would be in favour of a commutation. Such a commutation had been promised at the time of the Union; and it remained for those who had made the promise to show why it had not been carried into effect. Out of eleven or twelve counties in which the tithe on potatoes was levied, But the |