tion as those articles of consumption were excisable, that the amount of collection in that branch of revenue should be increased. But then, see how the thing stood. This very circumstance was one of those of which the agriculturists complained. They complained that such a depreciation of their produce had taken place, that they were growing it to a loss. They complained, that agricultural produce of every kind was brought-that they be accounted for by the diminution in the number of prosecutions for Bank forgeries; but there were so many causes from which the diminution might arise-for instance, a mild winter would occasion fewer commitments than a severe one-that no stress could be laid, no general conclusion be drawn, from the decreased numbers which had been stated. The right hon. secretary had come next to the revenue, and had taken it as an argument in his favour, that there had been no complaints of a dilapi-were obliged to bring it to market, dated revenue. For his own part, he had where (if he might use a common phrase) not heard any arguments used on that it was sold for less than nothing. It was subject. He had not heard any such of this they complained, by which their complaints; but he had heard that to situation was rendered so much worse than which no contradiction had been, because before. To this it was owing, that the low no contradiction could be given. He had wages of the manufacturer, who was heard it asserted, that the revenue was the great consumer of agricultural promuch higher, and fell more heavily on the duce, enabled him to live better, and public, than it had done before the re- to purchase a greater quantity of excisable sumption of cash payments. He had goods than he otherwise could do. This, heard it said, and not denied, that while as far as the increase of the comforts of nominally at 60 or 61,000,000l. it was in one class was concerned, could not be reeffect, and as to comparative value, nearer gretted: for it was a consolation, that out to 80,000,000l.; thus equalling in sub- of so much evil any good should be prostance the most costly year of our most duced; but he wished to warn the House costly and extravagant war. This was against taking the fact as a proof of the the complaint which he had heard-that prosperity of the country. It was, he there was a virtual increase in the pressure would maintain, impossible that the agriof the revenue, amounting to something culturists could continue to grow at a about 30 per cent.-But it was contended, loss; it was impossible that they could that the increase in our revenue was a proof continue to go on in the present way. of the increased comforts of the people; and [Hear!] They must reduce their cultithe Excise was called in as a proof of this. vation and grow less than they now did. The collection of this branch had, it was said, The price would then be increased; and increased in amount. This, he maintained, whenever that time arrived, so soon was a most fallacious criterion by which would it be found that the wages of the to measure the prosperity of a country or manufacturer would not be sufficient, not the comforts of a people. He knew merely for the supply of luxuries and comthat the chancellor of the Exchequer forts as they were called, but for his sublooked upon him with a smile of pity for sistence. One effect would be, that the such an assertion: for that right hon. gen-profits of the master manufacturer, now tleman had been accustomed to view pros-low enough, would be greatly diminished; perity as finance, and to judge of the comforts and happiness of a people by the amount of their contributions to the Exchequer. But he (Mr. B.) would contend, that the increase, if any, was to be accounted for upon other and different grounds. It was well known that, for the last two years, the manufacturers were enabled, upon the same rate of wagesand that they were low enough, all who were acquainted with the manufacturing districts would allow to procure a greater quantity of the necessaries and comforts of life than they had been able to do at any former period for several years. It was natural, then, in propor and the consequence would be, either that hundreds and thousands of hands would be thrown out of employment, or be obliged to work at such reduced wages, as would make them look back with envy on their miserable pittance of the present period. He understood the meaning of the cheer at his saying that at no distant time the farmer must reduce his produce. He repeated that such must be the case. It was impossible that he could go on and cultivate at an annually increasing loss; and it must follow, that the price of corn must thereby be increased by the diminution of the supply, unless the House did what they as yet showed no great willingness to of do-so reduce the taxes, as greatly to and part of the north-east coast lessen the expenses of cultivation. There Northumberland and Durham, las had was no other remedy, and as that remedy heard of no places where the distress was was not likely to be applied to the extent not equal in every county; and it was not which would relieve the farmer, the only the land-owners and farmers alone who resource left him was, to throw a large suffered, for it was known that where the quantity of land out of cultivation-that farmers suffered greatly, the labourers was to say, to bury the capital which he suffered in proportion. In some places, had heretofore employed on it, as com- the distress existed to the extent of the pletely as if he had thrown it into the production of crime; and in Norfolk and sea-that was to say, to destroy and Suffolk, where the farmer suffered most, render of no avail all the labour and exer- the situation of the labouring poor was tion of former years in improving that land. most wretched; and the distress and Yet this was the melancholy and only wretchedness of Ireland were too well hope which was held out to the agricul-known to need any comment of his. turist by hon. gentlemen on the other" But," said the right hon. secretary, side-that his produce must be lessened" see the distress which exists in several by throwing the land out of employment, places on the continent, where it cannot and thereby lessening his means of sub- have arisen from an alteration in the cursistence. He had heard it stated, that a rency." Now, he (Mr. B.) denied that great portion, if not the whole, of the distress existed to the same extent on the present agricultural distress arose from continent that it did in this country. But over production; and he was told to look if there was distress felt in France and the at the situation of the continent in the Netherlands, a great part of it could be same respect. Now, he could not see traced to the same cause; for, he would how, with an increase of population within ask,could 10,000,000l. be withdrawn from the last 30 years, in the proportion of the circulation there, and not be sensibly 3 to 2, and without any extraordinary felt? The alteration with us had taken application of machinery in its cultivation, place all at once. With them it was such a circumstance could arise. How more gradual, and its effect was spread this assertion could be supported, under over a larger surface; for the 10,000,000l. such circumstances, was to him a mystery which had been withdrawn must be conwhich he was not able to solve. But sidered as from the whole of the conanother reason why the distress did not tinent. However, in proportion as it was arise from over production, was founded lost in different places, so must the inconupon the comparison of the prices in the venience be more or less felt. Thus, the year 1792 and the present time. Much as depreciation of prices in Bordeaux was the farmer justly complained of his situa- 14, in Hamburgh 16, and in England 40 tion at present, the prices of his produce per cent, which would explain the dif were not at present lower, nor so low, as ference of effect between the operation of they were in that year. If there was a re- the cause on a larger or a smaller surface. dundancy, as compared with that time, the He was not prepared to say, that all the prices must be lower; but the price last distress of the country arose from a reyear was 55s. and it was only in the pre- turn to cash payments, yet still he would sent year that it had come down to 50s.; go to the inquiry, though he did not know whereas in 1792 it did not exceed 44s. exactly how it would operate. [Hear, But surely if we had a redundancy, the hear, from the marquis of Londonderry.] price should be still lower. What the Did the noble lord mean that he should farmer complained of was, that his ex- so far reverse all rational proceeding, as penses were doubled since 1792; and to anticipate the result of an examination to him it was immaterial whether the before he went into it? Did the noble price was diminished, or the expense of lord imagine him such a novice in logic, cultivation; each had an equal effect in that he would preface a demand for inthe diminution of his profits. As to quiry by an anticipation of the result? foreign countries he would contend, that It was because he desiderated information there was no comparison between the dis--because he was ignorant of all the effects tress which they experienced and that which was felt by the land-owners of England. With the exception of one or two places in the North Riding of Yorkshire, of the present measure-because he did not see all the evils, and could not be aware of the exact nature of the remedy which might be necessary, that he called upon the House to go into the examination of this important question. If he already possessed full information upon those points, inquiry would be absurd: but, if any thing could render him more anxious for the investigation-if any thing was wanted to convince him still more of the necessity of strict examination into this important matter, it was the reception which had been that night given to one of the most argumentative, learned, and elaborate speeches, which he had ever heard delivered upon a subject of so very abstruse and difficult a nature. The hon. member for Callington (Mr. Attwood) had brought to bear upon this question a degree of practical knowledge, logical acuteness, and, he might add, eloquence, which had rarely been combined on such a topic. He did not speak from prejudice in favour of the hon. member for Callington, seeing that he differed widely from him on many subjects; but it was almost impossible for any person interested in the subject, not to listen to him with attention and respect-nay, with admiration. Yet such an address seemed scarcely to have been attended to by the House. They were not in a frame and temper to listen to argument. He would not say dozens or scores, but hundreds of members had poured in during its delivery, not to discuss, but to vote and to prevent discussion; and while an argument was going on, which it was more easy to put down by clamour than to answer, they loudly called for a decision. [Hear, hear! If any thing, then, could induce him to be more anxious for inquiry by a committee, it was, that he saw the House not in a frame of mind at present fit for a discussion. It was, he said, now too late [Cries of "Hear, hear," from a mem. ber in the side gallery.] This was an additional proof of what he had just observed. This torpid indifference upon a subject of such importance, showed the patriotic feelings of the party. He could not but admire the ease of mind of some gentlemen, who could treat a subject, for the result of which the people of the country from one end to the other waited in breathless expectation, as a matter of mere common-place. He repeated, that it was now too late to talk of an immutable standard of currency, when, for the last five and twenty years, the whole system of gentlemen on the other side had been, to violate that standard. When it was seen that contracts had been made, VOL. VII. and afterwards broken without scruple, he would say, that no man who saw this done from day to day but must have come to a conclusion that it was never intended by government to return to cash payments. In 1811, a majority of that House a majority as great as that which he was prepared to expect were now ready to dismiss this motion, and stamp the decision of 1819 with a second vote of parliament-had passed a resolution, which any man who could count ten on his fingers must have known to be false, and which was proved by the force of an act of parliament passed within two months afterwards to have been false that a pound note was worth 20s. This was in May, 1811; and in the July fol lowing, an act was passed for the punishment of any man who should attempt to give less than 20s. for the pound note; thereby demonstrating that the public did not believe it to be worth that sum. This the House had done then, though it knew it was asserting what it did not believe. From his recollection of these facts, and for the reasons he had stated, he would vote for a committee, though he could not pretend to say what all the consequences of such a measure would be. He, however, felt satisfied, that if the House did not adopt such a measure at present, it would in a short time force itself upon them, and that in a way which it would not be able to avoid. The Marquis of Londonderry said, that at that hour of the morning he would oc cupy the time of the House only for a few minutes. The motion of the hon. member would, he contended, if adopted, lead to very dangerous results, and could produce no possible benefit. With that candour and manliness which characterized that hon. member, he had at once called for a committee to inquire how the standard currency of the country might be altered. Such a motion could be met by arguments showing that no alteration was necessary. But, that this was a measure not called for by necessity, was proved by the conduct of the hon. member himself; for if he considered it a measure of the importance which it was now sought to attach to it, why had he delayed it until the present period of the session? With respect to the amendment of his right hon. friend, it had been greatly misunderstood. It was not meant by it, that under no possible contingency any alteration could take place in the currency of the 3 U country as now established, but that at the present moment there was not the slightest ground for departing from the sound principles on that subject which had been recently put into execution. The present, he maintained, was not a time for the adoption of any plan for an alteration in our currency. When the House considered the daily attempts which were I made to shake the public faith-when, within the last 48 hours, they saw the attempt which had been made, and with success, in a neighbouring county-when they saw a man of whose talents he did not mean to speak disparagingly, getting up in a meeting of that county, and moving a clause to be added to a petition about to be presented to that House, calling on the House to deprive the public creditor of the fair interest of his debt-he would ask, was this a time for interfering with our currency, or was it not a time in which the House was called upon to affirm their former vote on the subject? He denied that the standard currency had been altered. The payment of specie had only been suspended; and in every contract subsequently made, a reférence had been had to an expected return to cash payments. He must protest, therefore, against any arguments founded upon such an assertion. He contended, that whilst this investigation was going forward, one of two things must take place either all contracts must be at a stand-still from a want of knowledge of the value in which they were to be paid, or extensive speculations would be formed, to collect a great quantity of that commodity in which the standard of value was likely to be fixed. If they wished to pass any measure to destroy public and private credit, and to throw all the operations of our industry into confusion, he could not conceive a measure more certain of doing it than the one proposed. The fixation of the standard was the only measure by which the country could hope to emerge from its present embarrassments. He should therefore, without pressing the argument farther, call upon the House, not merely to negative the motion, but to affirm the amendment of his right hon. friend. After a short reply from Mr. Western, the House, at three in the morning, divided For Mr. Western's motion, 30; Against it, 194. Mr. Huskisson's Amendment was then put, and agreed to. BANKRUPT LAWS.] The Lord Chancellor said, that a bill had been brought up from the other House at the close of the last session, making some important changes in the Bankrupt Laws. But as it contained much unnecessary matter, and was otherwise highly imperfect, he had signified his intention, if the measure were allowed to drop, to introduce a bill, or bills, upon the subject. This engagement he was now ready to perform. The first bill he should bring in, would remedy a considerable hardship, occasioned by the law as it now stood. If a commission were issued against a particular firm, all the partners were involved in the same fate, whatever might have been their conduct. Now, men had different feelings, and there were some who would think it highly important to their character to have the commission of bankruptcy superseded, instead of being obliged to take their certificates as bankrupts. This, however, could not now be done. The object of his bill, therefore, would be, to amend the law in this particular, and to enable the lord chancellor, or lord keeper, in cases of bankruptcy under a joint commission, to supersede the commission against any one of the partners who had satisfied all his creditors. On Monday, he should introduce another bill to amend some other part of the bankrupt laws, and he hoped that, together with the present, it would pass before the close of the session. He should afterwards propose a third bill, but as he had not yet made up his mind with respect to all its clauses, he should not expect it to be carried into effect until the ensuing session.-The bill was brought in, and read the first time. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Thursday, June 13. Mr. IRISH TITHES LEASING BILL.] Goulburn said, that in rising to call the attention of the House to this important subject, he was deeply sensible of the difficulties with which any individual had to contend, who undertook to submit to parliament a legislative measure on the subject of Tithes. All questions which involved the right of property were of a delicate and embarrassing nature; but there were, in this particular question, so many, and such important interests-so much of passion and prejudice to be reconciled, that it presented far more than ordinary difficulties. The antiquity of the system, and its necessary connection with the most valuable part of our institutions, made it doubtful how far any measure for its regulation could be satisfactory. It was not enough to see the evils to which the present system gave rise; it was requisite that the remedy proposed should not produce a derangement of other parts of the system, more dangerous than those which it was intended to repair; and it was, from these circumstances, more than probable, that any proposal would appear inadequate to the object in view. He begged to assure the House, that he had not approached the subject with any idea of superior competence for a task which others had in vain undertaken, but had been influenced solely by that anxious desire which animated the head of the Irish government, to remedy the evils under which Ireland had suffered, and to advance one step, at least, on the road of amelioration and improvement. He might have flattered himself that a measure brought forward in this spirit, and with this object, would have received the general, if not the universal concurrence of the House; and although he had been apprised that this was not likely to be the case, he nevertheless did not despair of so explaining the measure as to entitle it to the favour and approbation of the House. If, indeed, there were any persons who entertained an idea of finding in this bill a sanction for those wild and erroneous schemes which had been recently given to the public, or who con sidered that it was expedient to invade the property of the church, with a view to relieve other classes of the community from the burthens under which they la-. boured-to such persons he could only say, that, as he neither expected nor courted their support, he did not feel any apprehension of encountering their opposition. He was clearly convinced, that any such attempt at spoliation would not only be an act of the grossest injustice, and a violation of the most sacred rights of property as affected the church, but would lead to consequences, of which it would be impossible to calculate the final result. It required very little sagacity to foresee, what history had sufficiently proved, that, if that principle was once applied to the property of the church, no species of property would be safe from its operation; and to such a principle, whenever and by whomsoever proposed, he should always be prepared to contend in argument, and to offer every resistance in his power. He did not, indeed, apprehend that he should be met in the House by any such opponents. He was, however, given to understand, that the measure which he was about to propose would be opposed on the ground that the only remedy that could be applied to the acknowledged inconveniences of the tithe-system in Ireland, was general commutation. Certainly, the plan which he meant to propose to the House was not founded upon that principle. If gentle-. men meant by a commutation of tithes, a just and full equivalent given to the clergy for that property to which they had the most absolute and incontestable right, and that that equivalent was to be voluntarily accepted, he had no objection to the entertainment of such a principle; but he must add, the settlement of it on these terms was not a matter of easy execution. But, if by the term commutation it was meant that the church should be forcibly dispossessed of its property, and should be compelled to accept what might be called an equivalent in lieu of it, and if that equivalent was to be estimated and settled by persons unconnected with the church, and uninterested in the maintenance of its rights-to such a plan of commutation he should give the most decided opposition, because, in his opinion, it would differ very little, if at all, from the direct spoliation to which he had previously adverted. But, although the plan which he was now about to submit was |