to these persons?-By my apprentice, James. Hubbart.

How many people came to you?-Three persons.

Did you make any observation upon the person of any one of them ?-One I observed to be a lame man.

Did you observe whether he had any iron on or not?-No; I observed one to limp as he was going out at the door.

Relate what passed between you and those persons.-They asked, first of all, for a long! pistol-barrel; I produced a musketoon-barrel to them; it was observed that would not do,! they did not want it plugged up at the end; from that I observed, that I apprehended it must be a straight cylinder that they wanted; they said it was; that it must be about fiveeighths of an inch diameter in the bore, and the eighth of an inch thick; and they said, if I would cast it, and bore it, they would finish it themselves. I told them, I should not undertake to do it without they brought a pattern; one of them observed, would not a rocket-case do; I said it would, if they plugged up the end.

That was for a model?—Yes.

What was to be the length? -There was no length specified at that time; they went away after that. I believe one of them asked how long it would take making, to which I answered about three days.

During the time these persons were with you, did they all take a share in the conversation, or was it confined to any one of them? -The lame man seemed to be the principal. . Did the others interfere in the course of the conversation?-I know it was not the lame man that asked me as to the time when it might be done.

In general it was the lame man that conversed with you upon the subject?-In gene

ral it was.

I believe, since the time of this conversation, you have seen a person of the name of Upton?-I saw him in September, 1795. Did you, when you saw him then, recollect having seen him before?-I did not.

Did you know whether he was the lame man that conversed with you?-I cannot

say.

Is that all you know upon the subject?Yes.

Joseph Flint cross-examined by Mr. Gurney. When you were called down, you say, these persons were in your shop? Yes.

Who was the person that spoke to you first?-I believe it was the lame man.

Do you recollect any thing that either of them besides the lame man said, except asking as to the time it would take making?There was something respecting a rocket-case, but I cannot recollect now what it was.

Every thing else passed between you and the lame man?-Yes.

What is your business?-A brass-founder. Where do you live;-At No. 40, in Shoelane, Fleet-street.

Do you remember any body coming to your shop in September, 1794?-I do, very well. Can you tell what time in September it was?-I cannot tell the day.

Was it in the beginning or the end of the month?-I cannot say.

How many persons came?-First two men came, and in five minutes one man came to inquire after these two men.

Lord Chief Justice Eyre.-Do you mean that one man came in while they were there, or after they were gone?-After they were gone.

Mr. Wood.-What did the two men come for?-They asked for a tube or a barrel; I told them it was not in my line of business; if they wanted a barrel they must apply to the clock-makers, or if they wanted a tube they must apply to those that draw tubes.

Did they say what they wanted it for?No; they went away, and then another came and asked for the two gentlemen.

Do you know who that man was?—I think the third that came in was Peregrine Palmer.

That was all that he said?-Yes, to the best of my knowledge, they were gone down the lane, he went after them.

Thomas Bland cross-examined by Mr.
Adam.

Do you know Palmer?--I have seen him. Did you know him at that time?--I did not. How long after was it before you knew Palmer's person?-I was never acquainted with Palnier; I saw him before the privy council, they told me his name was Palmer; I said, to the best of my knowledge, that was the third man that came to inquire for the other two.

You do not know who the other persons were?-One was a lame man.

They staid but a few minutes?-A very few. And you did not supply them with any thing of any sort ?-Nothing at all.

Does that little dwell upon your memory? -It was so insignificant that I took no notice ofit:-I do not know what passed at all the first time; the second time I called upon him on purpose to know how the subscription went on; instead of answering concerning the subscription, he answered me concerning the Corresponding Society.

We will not go at large into that.-Was there any thing that led to the production of any instrument?--No such a thing.

Do you remember calling upon him during Bartholomew fair?-I had given him an invitation when I first called there, seeing he was a watch-maker, to come and look at an engine of mine, which I thought very likely might be a treat to him, as being in that line; it was rather out of the way, as such; he did come; that was nearly about Bartholomew fair time; the distance between the times that I had called on him and that time I cannot well determine, but the way that I know that he called upon me at Bartholomew fair time was, a son of mine was lying ill at that time, and I remember very well he was making an observation

We must not hear what your son observed to you; but, when you saw Upton, do you recollect having any particular conversation with him about the power of air?-Yes, exactly so; he saw an air-pump lying in my shop, I explained it to him in the best manner I could; I showed him an air-gun, and explain ed it in the best manner I could.

After having explained it to him, did he come again to look at this air-gun ?-He did, next day.

Did he come alone?—No, there was a man with him.

Do you recollect any thing particular about the man who came with him?--No; Upton had displeased me in his conversation in the second interview I had with him, and therefore I neither liked him nor his acquaintance.

Did you observe any thing particular about the hand of that person?-No; the gentleman that came with him told me he was very fond of shooting, and that he had lost some of his fingers by the explosion of a gun; but whether he had or had not, I do not know, for I

did not look at his hand; I was rather dis

gusted with Mr. Upton as I said before, and I did not pay any regard to him nor his acquaintance.

But he said his hand had received an injury by the explosion of a gun?-He did. Did he handle the gun, or what did he do? He viewed it, and said it was a handsome piece.

Did he apply to you to do any job for him. Upton asked me if I wanted a job, I replied I had got more business than I could do. The person who was with him was by at the time when he asked you to take this job?The person that was with him was on the outside of the door and he was in the door-way, it was just as he was leaving the house.

That man is the person who handled the air-gun?-He did.

And praised it?-He did as a handsome piece, which it really was.

Had you any conversation with him about the properties of air?-Not a word, I was at dinner-I did not get up from my seat all the time they were there, till they were just a going, and that was merely because I thought they stopped too long.

Have you seen the man who came with Upton any where since?-Never in my life, nor I don't think I should have known him six hours or three hours after he left my place, I took so little notice of him.

You had so great a dislike to Upton that you would not let yourself know the persons that came with him?-I did not take notice of him, nor I do not know that I should have known him if I had met him in the street a minute after.

Did you see any person afterwards with Upton before the privy council?-No; I never saw Upton at all at the privy council.

Did you see any person before the privy council who had lost any of his fingers?-Not that I know of; I was at the privy council when Mr. Dundas presided, and there was a man of the name of Dennis, a sailor, in the lobby; at the same time a man came out, he said there he goes; I asked who? why, said he, Crossfield; said I do you know him? yes, said he, damn his eyes, I would know his ashes was he burnt, or any such damned rascal as he was; so I understood that to be the man.

I do not ask you to declarations of other people; but I ask you whether you did not see a person who had a defect in his fingers, where the privy council were sitting?—No; I took the man that came with Upton to me, to be a taller man almost as tall as Mr. White.

You say you invited Upton to come to your house to look at an engine of yours, which you thought might entertain him?—Yes.

Having an air-pump in your shop induced you to talk to him about the properties of air? Yes.

Had he asked you any thing about the properties of air before you introduced the subject?-I do not think he did.

Did he appear at the time to be conversant with the properties of air?—I do not think he

was.

And therefore he asked you for the purpose of enlightening his ignorance ?—Yes.

Mr. Law. Was this at the beginning of Bartholomew fair, or when?—I cannot tell. Mr. Peregrine Palmer sworn.-Examined by Mr. Garrow.

I believe you reside in Barnard's Inn ? I do.

You are an attorney by profession?—I am. How long have you been acquainted with the prisoner Crossfield ?-I believe about fifteen or sixteen years.

What is he by profession ?-He is a physician by profession.

Where did he reside?-He has resided at a number of places since I first knew him.

Did he reside in London in the latter part of the time during which you were intimate with him?-He resided in Dyers-buildings, Holborn that was the last place I knew him live in.

Were you very intimate with him?-Yes; there was a great intimacy between us.

Did you belong to any club or society of which he was a member ?—Yes.

What might it be?-I suppose you allude to the Corresponding Society. I did belong to several societies of which he was a member, among others I was a member of the London Corresponding Society.

Lord Chief Justice Eyre.-Was he also a member of that society?—I do not know whether he was or not; I have seen him there.

Mr. Garrow. I understand you to have answered to my first question, that you supposed I alluded to the Corresponding Society; I ask you upon your oath have you any the least doubt that he was a member of that society? -I have not.

Was he of the same division with you?--Yes. I ask you upon your oath, did not he attend very regularly?-I have seen him there several times.

Was not he a regularly attending member? -I have seen him there frequently, three, four or five times, I believe, I cannot tell the number of times at this distance.

Do you know a person who was called Upton?—Yes.

Do you remember in the month of September 1794, accompanying the prisoner Crossfield to Upton's house?—Yes; I do.

About what time in the month was it?-In the beginning of the month; I cannot tell the day.

Did you and Crossfield accompany Upton to any place?--Yes.

Where did you go to P-A house; I do not know whether it is in New-street or in Newstreet-square.

In the neighbourhood of Gough-square?—

Yes.

Was it a house of any trade or business?— I believe it was a brass-founder's.

You and Crossfield and Upton went there together?-Yes.

What passed at the brass-founder's when you were so in company?-I know nothing of what passed; Upton had some business there as I understood.

I am asking what passed at the brassfounder's when you were present making one of the company, and I desire you to state it upon your oath ?-I have no recollection of any thing that passed there.

Mr. Garrow. Attend to what you are about, and speak the truth.

Witness.-I know what I am about, and shall speak nothing but the truth.

How long were you in company with Crossfield and Upton at the brass-founder's in Newstreet?-A few minutes.

You can recollect what passed?—I can recollect nothing at all about it.

That will not satisfy the Court, I should think?-I will say the truth, I can say no more about it.

Was there any business transacted at this brass-founder's?-I do not know what the business was, it was Upton's business as I understood; Upton said he had some business at this brass-founder's, what his business was I know not.

man.

I ask you upon your oath whether you were not a chairman of a committee of the London Corresponding Society?--I consider a delegate as a kind of a chairman.

Did Mr. Crossfield attend the meetings pretty regularly?—I believe I may have seen him there about three or four times; I caunot tell the exact number at this distance of time.

VOL. XXVI.

passed there?-I cannot recollect; it was something in the way of his own business. Did you see any thing produced at the brass-founder's ?-Not to my recollection. Will you swear there was not?—I will not; but I have no recollection of any thing.

After you had finished your business there. where did you go?-The next place we went to, was a house in Shoe-lane I think.

What business was carried on there?-The same business.

D

A brass-founder?--Yes.

You went immediately from the house we first talked of, to the house in Shoe-lane?

Yes.

How long were you there in company with Crossfield and Upton?-Not at all; I did not | go into the house.

You waited for them without?-Yes. How long were they there?-A very short time indeed.

How long do you think?—I suppose a mi nute or two minutes, a very short time.

Where did you go to from the brass founder's in Shoe-lane ?-To a house in Cocklane.

You did not go with them into the house in Shoe-lane?--I did not.

Upon your oath did you go in afterwards to inquire after them?—I did.

It would have been as well to have told us that-then after they were gone from the brass-founder's in Shoe-lane you went in to inquire where the two gentlemen were gone? -I did.

In consequence of the information you received there of your two friends, you went after them?-Yes.

How soon did you overtake Crossfield and Upton?-I overtook them in Shoe-lane; I was informed they were just gone out.

Then you walked together to Cock-lane ?Yes.

To what house of trade there?-To a person of the same business.

A brass-founder?—Yes.

Did you go in with them there?—Yes; I believe I went into the shop.

Have you any doubt about it?-No; I have

With respect to doing what?-I have no recollection, I am not a brass-founder; I do not know.

Do you know what a tube is?-Yes; certainly, any man must know what a tube is.

Was there any conversation there about a brass tube and its dimensions?-I have no recollection of any thing of that kind.

Recollect that you are upon your oath ?--I know that perfectly well; and therefore I shall say nothing but the truth.

Was there any conversation about a model? ---There might be such conversation pass; but I do not know whether there did or not.

I am not asking you about particulars, but give us some information of what passed; was any brass tube produced by any body?— I have no recollection that there was.

Have you ever seen any thing like this before? [showing the witness a brass tube] -I recollect I saw that at the privy council.

Did you never see this before, as a subject upon which persons were conversing at the time you saw it ?--I do not recollect that I did.

Did you ever see these before? [showing the witness the models]-No; I never did.

I am afraid you will forget your own christian name by-and-by; you have been long acquainted with Crossfield ?--I have.

And are well acquainted with his handwriting?-Upon my word I cannot say that

I am.

Upon your oath cannot you venture to swear to his hand-writing?-There is but one thing that I can swear to his hand by, that is the signing of his name.

You have frequently seen him write?—I have.

Have you ever corresponded with him?→ I never received five letters from Mr Crossfield in the course of my acquaintance with him.

Look at this paper [showing it to the witness] and tell me whose hand-writing you believe that to be ?-I cannot swear to this hand-writing.

I do not ask you to swear to it, and you who are an attorney know I do not: upon the oath you have taken whose hand-writing do you believe that to be?-I cannot swear to a belief of this hand-writing.

Do you mean to swear that you have no belief upon the subject?---I have not.

Do you mean to swear that you believe that is or not the hand-writing of a man you are acquainted with ?-I do not know enough of it to be able to form an opinion upon it.

Now open this paper and look at it; have you ever seen it before?--I do not know upon my word.

Mr. Garrow-I am sorry to be obliged so often to admonish you, that you are upon your oath ?

Witness.---You might save yourself all that trouble I know it very well.

Lord Chief Justice Eyre.---You recollect that when you answer upon your word, that is not exactly answering on the obligation that you are speaking under, that was the occasion of your being reminded that you are

upon your oath.

f

Witness.---I consider that when I first came into court, I was sworn to speak the

truth.

Witness. It may not be a proper way of answering; but I consider that every thing I

am saying in this court, I am saying upon my oath.

Mr. Garrow.Then upon the oath you have taken, have you ever seen that paper before.---There were some papers shown me before the privy council, whether this is one I cannot tell upon my oath I do not know. Have you the least doubt that that paper was shown to you before the privy council, that you were interrogated to the subject, and that you gave answers respecting it?--I do not know whether this piece of paper was shown me or not; there were some pieces of paper shown me.

Do you mean to swear now, that you have no belief whose hand-writing that is, after looking at it?--I can form no belief about it.

You cannot be sure that you ever saw this paper before I handed it to you?---No.

Have you ever seen any paper which appeared to you to describe the same subject; I am not speaking of your examination at the privy council, but had you before you were examined by the privy council seen a paper containing such drawings as I have shown you; I tell you now that I have your examination in my hand--upon your oath had you before your examination by the privy council ever seen, and I shall ask you presently in whose custody, any paper with similar drawings to this? I do not recollect any thing of the kind.

Are you equal to the swearing that you never had?--I cannot swear that I never saw such, but I have no recollection of any thing of the kind.

Have you any belief of the kind ?---I can form no belief.

I ask you once more upon your oath have you never said when you were upon your oath, that you had seen a paper similar to

that?

Mr. Adam.--Does your lordship think this is the proper way of examining a witness in chief?

Lord Chief Justice Eyre.---The whole course of this species of examination is not regular. This is a witness for the crown; if he disgraces himself, which it is the tendency of this examination to make him do, they lose the benefit of his testimony. The idea of extracting truth from a witness for the crown, who disgraces himself, is in my apprehension, and always has been, a thing perfectly impracticable, for the moment he has gone to the length of discrediting his testimony, by the manner in which he shuffles with your examination, there is an end of all credit to him. You recollect upon a very solemn occasion, the judges were all of opinion, that that kind of examination on the part of a prosecution was improper, for that it always ended in destroying the credit of your own witness.

Mr. Garrow.---My object was, to refresh his memory. Be so good as look at this paper [another paper] do you know it?-I do not.

Do you recollect ever seeing it before?---I cannot say I recollect ever seeing it before, but it appears to me to be a paper similar to what was shown me at the privy council.

You are correct in that---that is the paper that was shown to you before the privy council---supposing that to be the same paper, do you recollect ever to have seen it before it was shown to you at the privy council?---I do not.

Do you know whose hand-writing it is?-~ I do not; it appears to be a different handwriting from the last you showed me.

Nor the drawings whose they are ?---No. Do you know whose hand-writing this is? It is a hand-writing I am not acquainted

with.

The last place that they were at I think was the brass-founder's in Cock-lane---how long were you, Crossfield, and Upton at the brass-founder's in Cock-lane ?---A very few minutes.

Where did you go next?---To Mr. Hill's in Bartholomew-close.

What business does he carry on?---I believe he is a turner.

A turner in brass or wood ?---I do not know : I have heard he is a turner.

Is he a member of the London Corresponding Society ?--- He was at that time.

Both Upton and Crossfield, if I understand you right, accompanied you to Mr. Hill's?-They did so.

What passed there ?--I recollect Upton giving some instructions to Hill for something, I think the word model was made use of, but I am not a mechanic myself; the word model or pattern, or something of that nature was mentioned.

Was any drawing produced upon that occasion?-I think I remember Upton producing some drawing.

For what purpose?-As instructions for something that Hill was to make.

Was that drawing left with Hill?-I cannot say.

You did not see the drawing made at the time ?---I think Upton made it at the time; but I will not positively swear that.

Do you recollect any thing more that passed at Hill's?-No.

Do you recollect any thing else being produced at Hill's besides the drawing?--I do not recollect it, there might be such a thing produced, but I have no recollection of it.

After you had left Hill's where did you go to next?-Mr. Crossfield and I were going somewhere upon some business together; it was merely an accidental business Upton's going with us.

That can be no answer to my present question; which is, where you went to from Hill's?-I cannot recollect.

Did you part there, or go any where together afterwards?-I believe we parted somewhere thereabouts-I do not recollect going any where after that.