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tition pre

State events, like incidents in common life are Catholic pe- not fairly appreciated by the remote consequences, sented. be they ever so important, but by the immediate effects and first impressions produced by them upon the persons, whom they originally affected. The unbiassed mind, in order to judge fairly of them, remits its operations retrospectively to the moment, which gave them birth. The Catholic petition having been returned from Ireland with new and all genuine signatures, was only presented to the House of Commons on the 25th of May; and inasmuch, as the great and interesting novelty, which distinguished this debate from that of 1805 upon the same subject, arose out of the Veto, the most correct account of it will be given in the words of the high character, who on this occasion brought it under the consideration of the public. It is his own solemn testimony given of this transaction, when the Catholic question was last brought before the House of Commons on the 14th of May 1810. Although Mr. Grattan had by parental right, the introduction and management of the Catholic question, yet Mr. Ponsonby, who had powerfully advocated it in parliament, was now the leader in the House of Commons of the political friends of the cause.

Mr. Fonsonby's ne

with Lord

"Having been, for a great many years of my gociation life, a sincere and uniform supporter of the CathoFingal and lic claims, when Lord Fingal came over, two years ago, the sole delegate of the Catholics of Ireland, he was pleased to enter into much confidential conversation with me. I told him, that I had

Dr. Milner.

observed, in all the intercourse I had with others upon this important subject, that nothing weighed so much, and seemed to have such an operation upon the minds of this country, as the notion, that the Catholics of Ireland were under the controul, and under the jurisdiction of a foreign nation; and I stated, that I understood some communication had formerly taken place between the Catholic Bishops and the Catholic Clergy on that occasion, but that I did not know what it was; for the Noble Lord, on the other side of the House (Lord Castlereagh) is aware, that to his administration no man was more opposed than myself; and, therefore, what was passing under his administration, was less likely to be known to me. Lord Fingal said, he thought so too; but, he said, he believed there would not be much difficulty upon the subject; for that, in 1799*, the Catholic Bishops had made a proposal to the Irish government, and that they now entertained the same opinion they then entertained. I asked Lord Fingal, if I had per

• As so much has been said in and out of parliament concerning the Veto, and some imagine, that the Royal nomination, whether positive or negative, would be an accession of patronage to the crown, and of course to the minister, the reader will find in the Appendix, No. I. a very correct statement of the funds and sources, upon which the functionary Catholic clergy subsist in Ireland. It is to be found in the Appendix of Mr. Newnham's last statistical work, in quarto. And in the Appendix, No. II. he will find the resolutions of the ten Irish Prelates, who were Trustees to Maynooth College in 1799, which Mr. Ponsonby here refers to. Vide what has been before said upon this subject, Vol. I. p. 51. & seq.

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mission to state such proposal at the present time? He said, certainly; but he added, that the Irish Bishops had in this country one of the Catholic Bishops, who was their agent, and that I had better see him. I said he was unknown to me, but that if Lord Fingal would introduce him to me, I should be glad to have some conversation with him. A day or two after I received a note from Lord Fingal, stating, that Dr. Milner was in Warwickshire, and would write to me. Some time passed, and before the 3d of May, Lord Fingal wrote to say, that Dr. Milner was in London, and that he and Dr. Milner would wait upon me the next day. My answer to his letter appointed the particular time, and accordingly the next day they came to me; the conversation lasted hours; two or three hours at least: there was a great deal of conversation relating to the Catholics, but particularly with regard to the nomination of the Catholic Bishops, and the negative to be given to the Crown. After the conversation had taken place, Lord Fingal and Dr. Milner withdrew, and certainly when they withdrew, nothing had passed in writing, and if it had not been for an event, which afterwards took place, I should not have any thing more to shew for the truth of what I have stated to the House, than my own word, and the confirmation of Lord Fingal; but the day after the conversation had passed, Dr. Milner called at my house again, and he left at my house a ticket and a letter *."

That ticket and letter were produced or given in evidence before the House of Commons on the 14th of May 1810. On

From this parol evidence of Mr. Ponsonby, confirmed by the written document, it is evident, that

one side of the ticket was written Dr. Milner, Bloomsbury, and on the other these remarks:

1. Protestant Succession. Clause in Oath of Defence Bill.
2. Attending Established Service.
Service by Articles of War.

3. Catholic Catechism-Thomas Paine's Works.
4. Nomination to Catholic Prelacies.

The letter was in the following words.

"Dr. Milner presents his respectful compliments to the Right Hon. Mr. Ponsonby, and takes the liberty of stating, distinctly in writing, the substance of what he did say, or meant to say, in the conversation, which he had the honour of holding with Mr. Ponsonby. First, the Catholic Prelates of Ireland are willing to give a direct negative power to his Majesty's government, with respect to the nomination of their titular bishoprics, in such manner, that when they have among themselves resolved, who is the fittest person for the vacant See, they will transmit his name to his Majesty's ministers, and if the latter should object to that name, they will transmit another and another, until a name is presented, to which no objection is made; and (which is never likely to be the case) should the Pope refuse to give those essen-tially necessary spiritual powers, of which he is the depositary, to the person so presented by the Catholic Bishops, and so approved of by government, they will continue to present the names, until one occurs, which is agreeable to both parties, namely, the Crown and the Apostolic See. It is to be observed, however-1. That the Crown does not interfere with the concerns of any other religious sect, or church, which it does not support. 2. That the nominators in this business, namely, the Catholic Bishops, have universally sworn allegiance to his Majesty 3. That' they will moreover engage to nominate no person, who had 'not taken the oath in question.

2dly. It appears that the clause concerning the Protestant

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the proposal or introduction of the Veto, was no sudden improvident measure brought on in the warmth of debate. The Catholic body had delegated Lord Fingal upon a plenipotentiary mission to their parliamentary friends and advocates, and were committed by whatever his Lordship should

Succession, does not occur in the oath of the Defence Bill; but it would be highly gratifying to the consciences of the Catholic Bishops and clergy, and a great proportion of the laity (should an opportunity occur), if any friend of theirs would distinctly state, in what sense they understood that clause, in the oath appointed for them to take, particularly in that of 1791, viz. as a penalty, which must for ever remain upon them, and to which they submit with all humility, not as an engagement, which they take upon themselves, in such sort, that they would be obliged to take no arms against his Majesty, if he were to go to mass. They conceive themselves justified in understanding the clause in this sense, by the most positive assurances, that such was the meaning of the legis lature, which were given them in 1791, by Bishop Horseley, and other distinguished Senators, who managed the bill in parlia

ment.

3dly. The practice of forcing Catholic soldiers and sailors to attend the established service of the Church of England, and every where else, except in Ireland, is a religious grievance and oppression, which is deeply felt by all Catholics, particularly by the subjects of this intolerance.

4thly. Mr. Ponsonby was so good as to say, that he would disclaim, in the name of the Catholics of Ireland, the civil and religious code of Thomas Paine, which they have been accused in the newspapers at least, of teaching and holding.

"Dr. Milner has not, of course, had an opportunity yet of con-, sulting with the Catholic Prelates of Ireland on the important subject of the Catholic presentations; but he has every reason to believe, that they will cheerfully subscribe to the plan traced out in the first page of this note."

11, Queen street, Bloomsbury-square.